What's up with the Zeb Cook hatred?

[Flambeaux]

You're just not going to let that go, are you?

Falconer is stirring the pot this go 'round.

Actually, he's not. I don't see Falconer saying a single unkind word about Gene, quite the contrary actually. Unlike others.

I'm fixin' to say unkind words about Gene. But the mods told us to drop the matter, and I rather agree with them.

I do see Falconer, after other mods told us to drop it, trying to defend his buddy's rude behavior. That I don't get.

[JLowder]

So the idea was just that, since Greyhawk was a brand that TSR owned that had been successful in the past and might be successful again in the future, that it was better to keep it alive on a slow boil with a couple-three products a year, even if it so happened that most/all of those products weren't really very good, rather than let it disappear completely?

Yeah, that's the way it worked, though everyone's mileage may vary a little on what is considered a good and bad product.

I edited the Puppets module, which was sutured together from a couple of RPGA projects, I recall. It was put on the schedule because it was a cheap and easy way to generate content. Now, TSR cut costs like that with all the lines, even the front list; it just happened more often with the lines that were not hot at the moment.

On the fiction front, the Rose Estes books were scheduled because they sold very well for a time. But they were also polarizing--people loved them or hated them. She was also the only active Greyhawk author, so when her sales declined, the line declined. We thought about launching another series, by someone else, but the Realms and Dragonlance novels were selling so well we couldn't justify the schedule spots. The book department did try to relaunch Greyhawk with a high end book, Night Watch, in the TSR Books line. That was a very good book and received a lot of resources--ads, promo at Gen Con--but the sales didn't justify taking schedule spots from the other book lines at the time.

So the company was willing to commit resources from time to time and wanted to line to succeed. The relaunch attempts just never got the numbers to where they needed to be.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

[JLowder]

Not sure if that held true when Jim was there or not.

Yes, that was also true for the few years I was there after you left, Mike.

It should also be noted that Bruce Heard, who ran the freelance schedule, was very particular about who worked on D&D and Mystara, since those were important to him. So that impacts the talent you see reflected in those freelance assignments.

And Bruce had very high standards to start with. Moreover, he was, as Mike noted, "ruthless" with freelancers. Even people in house, who had taken on freelance assignments, could find themselves up against the wall if their writing or editing was not up to Bruce's high standards.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

[rogatny]

Not sure if that held true when Jim was there or not.

Yes, that was also true for the few years I was there after you left, Mike.

It should also be noted that Bruce Heard, who ran the freelance schedule, was very particular about who worked on D&D and Mystara, since those were important to him. So that impacts the talent you see reflected in those freelance assignments.

And Bruce had very high standards to start with. Moreover, he was, as Mike noted, "ruthless" with freelancers. Even people in house, who had taken on freelance assignments, could find themselves up against the wall if their writing or editing was not up to Bruce's high standards.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

The only thing more heart breaking to me than the list of various Gygax related projects never to see the light of day (Castle Greyhawk, the Shadow world stuff, Stoink, etc.) due to internal problems, is the list of planned Mystara projects that Bruce Heard showed us over on the Mystara Mailing List about 5 or 6 years ago. Not so much because I would have bought and loved those products, but because it was so patently obvious how much Bruce loved and believed in the line.

The Acaeum has a list of the proposed 1993-1995 products that never came out. http://www.acaeum.com/library/mystara.html

[Matthew]

It should also be noted that Bruce Heard, who ran the freelance schedule, was very particular about who worked on D&D and Mystara, since those were important to him. So that impacts the talent you see reflected in those freelance assignments.

And Bruce had very high standards to start with. Moreover, he was, as Mike noted, "ruthless" with freelancers. Even people in house, who had taken on freelance assignments, could find themselves up against the wall if their writing or editing was not up to Bruce's high standards.

That is very interesting. So it may be that Heard was keeping the quality high on the D&D line as a result of his love for it and control over who worked on it. That makes a lot of sense.

[TRP]

Falconer is stirring the pot this go 'round.

Actually, he's not. I don't see Falconer saying a single unkind word about Gene, quite the contrary actually. Unlike others.

I'm fixin' to say unkind words about Gene. But the mods told us to drop the matter, and I rather agree with them.

I do see Falconer, after other mods told us to drop it, trying to defend his buddy's rude behavior. That I don't get.

The moderation stated:

Note: since Gene has indicated he doesn't want to participate in this discussion any further and everybody has had a chance to get a "last word" jab in against him, please desist from any further attacks against him. Gene didn't want to be involved in this thread -- he told me some stuff in confidence a while ago that I made oblique reference to in another thread (which I probably shouldn't have) which had the unintended consequence of dragging him into this public debate without his consent. While he was here and willing to argue about it arguing back was fair, but now that he's decided he no longer wants to, throwing mud after him isn't cool and won't be tolerated.

Gene is a long-time and valued member of the K&K community (or "clique," if you will ), and I've considered him a good internet-friend long before this site existed. I'll admit he didn't make his case well in this thread, and I suspect that he could've made it stronger had he chosen to -- that he chose not to was his decision, and since he didn't invite this controversy (I dragged him into it) I'm not going to blame him for that. And neither are any of the rest of you, at least any further than you already have upthread.

Note that it does not forbid anyone saying anything NICE about Gene, and Falconer is well within the bounds of this posted moderaion, and isn't even the slightest bit out of line.

In my NON-mod opinion that is.

[JLowder]

Not so much because I would have bought and loved those products, but because it was so patently obvious how much Bruce loved and believed in the line.

All of the lines had their passionate champions, and there were lots of really interesting proposed products over the years that never saw the light of day. Anyone who looked at employment at TSR as "just a job" tended to leave pretty quickly because the pay was relatively low and the stress level rather high.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

[Falconer]

I got to know Bruce Heard pretty well a couple of years back. He's a very nice guy, and definitely seems both creative and to have a unique work ethic and organized mind.

[Mythmere]

Gentlemen (those involved in the Gene thing), you will all now cut it the fuck out. You are filling the thread with crap, and worse, repeating the crap, and worse, not even bothering to make the crap colorful. Gene is a topic that will not resurface on this thread: Quazl, Flambeaux, Red Priest, and Zotster. I haven't spotted Falconer keeping it going other than pointing something out, but Falconer if you are misbehaving then you stop, too.

What Falconer pointed out is this - K&KA is a 0e/1e oriented board. This thread is about TSR, and that's fine while it stays on TSR. It's fine if someone wants to defend Zeb Cook's role in 2e, too, as long as it stays at that level.

But we do not have threads about, or discussion of 2e here, because it is beyond the board's scope and also because it causes things to get vituperative (in a bad way, I mean, not vituperative in a good way).

Everyone please comply, the policy is part of the Alehouse's way of doing things..

Carry on.

[Nagora]

On the fiction front, the Rose Estes books were scheduled because they sold very well for a time. But they were also polarizing--people loved them or hated them. She was also the only active Greyhawk author, so when her sales declined, the line declined.

Any idea what the attitude to Gary's ongoing line of Greyhawk novels was at the time inside TSR?

[Thoth Amon]

On the fiction front, the Rose Estes books were scheduled because they sold very well for a time. But they were also polarizing--people loved them or hated them.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

Uhhh, someone loved her books? Really?

[Melan]

There is a niche for everything. I am sure there is at least one guy in eastern Ontario who has a thing for harpies.

[Ska]

Finished reading this thread.

Zot.---I always wonder about those who appear after someone dies and then talk about how things were with the deceased. Of course the deceased cannot respond.

EGG's kids were not useful? Says who? You? Perhaps we should ask the kids of the games creator how useful they were.

EGG did not care about the employees of the company and the company which only existed because of him? From your perspective as to your job security, sure, but from EGGs? I bet EGG saw the destruction of his game being carried out by those who really did not get 1e-Gygaxian style of play (this includes you after reading your list of contributions to AD&D) and made a last ditch attempt to regain control or at least get ADD out of the hands of people who did not understand it.

You may not see it, but 2e (including the material done by you) was different in a bad way from EGG's version of the game. You and th eothers at TSR helped to destroy EGG's version. Now, you may have wanted to make the game your own or just wanted something new. Either way, fans of OAD&D, and I know many, thought 2e and other versions SUCKED.

Foster made some good points.

I feel quite certain your "paycheck" was more important to you then the "game". I also feel quite certain you do not get what old style Gygaxian ADD is or was. How can I say this? I simply look at the work you have done and what you were a part of.

Your questionable insider information has been entertaining, but nothing more.

I know for a fact EGG and Gene knew each other and corresponded. I also corresponded on and off with EGG for a few years. I think your statements about him, his children, and habits are wrong. This comes from years of reading EGGs posts, his e-mails, and seeing some of his kids writings.

I await a challenge from you as you did Gene asking what I have done.

Please refer to Monsters of Myth and look at the Sand Giant, Hypno-Spider , etc. I will claim any such creation on my part has more EGG 1e style then found in the entire list of your works.

A bold statement? Sure, but I was creating for a 1e Gygax feel, I was not working to change OADD into a bland and different game.

I do though, hope you stick around, but feel quite certain you will fade back from where you came.

Gene----you are a valued long time poster. No way to confirm anything Zot says about the dead, who are no longer around. Ignore the guy. Heck, don't ignore him and study him as to "what went wrong."

[Flambeaux]

When did being rude to new folks around here become the Alehouse SOP?

[Dwayanu]

When did being rude to new folks around here become the Alehouse SOP?

When I arrived, I made the error of offering a possibly positive initial assessment of C&C. * * buckshot! * * ... but (evidently) I survived.