What is the source of a witches magic?

[AxeMental]

In 1e terms what do you think would be the source of a classical witches magic (the sort that might fly around on a broom, sell love potions, etc.) the sort from MacBeth or the other countless examples of cartoons and movies. And how does that compare to the humanoid casters (shaman lizard men, orcs etc.). I have always considered the "power source" of a classic witch to be not the same as a typical clerics or MU or even a druid. Maybe something more primitive and basic with smatterings of all three of the others (especially demonic for evil witches). Perhaps there are many types, but what do they all share in common that differs from a Cleric and an MU?

Is it a primitive magic that has its source of power coming from something totally unique then the other magic systems presented in the game. The Dragon Mag Witch I thought was more MU then it should have been.

[Ratbreath]

You might enjoy the Role Aids treatment of witches. They describe 10 different sorts (classical, voodoo, medieval, etc) but the basic idea is that the witch makes some sort of bargain or contract with a higher power. This might be a deity or something more abstracted. They don't have to follow the ideals of the power or worship it so long as they adhere to whatever the bargain was and the spell use generally resembles magic users more than clerics, though they have a lot of their own unique forms of magic.

[EOTB]

A pact with demons or devils; demons are probably the more appropriate of the two.

[Philotomy Jurament]

Just off the top of my head, I'd probably make a classic witch a sub-class similar to the druid, but that doesn't participate in the druidical hierarchy or have the druids' focus/goals. The source of their spells would be both nature and spirit/deity/deity-servant sourced, with spells granted due to pacts (which could be explicit or implicit or both) with such powers.

I'd create a sub-class list of spells for witches, separate from the other lists. I'd focus on spells like:

• Enchantment/Charms
• Divination
• Blessings/Curses
• Healing/Harm
• Illusions (though not to the degree of an Illusionist)
• Conjuration/Summoning
• Perhaps some new spells for "household/community magic"

I'd also include the find familiar spell, tweaked for the witch class.

I'd probably tweak the casting times and material components and such to suit the way I see a witch using spells.

I might also introduce some rules for multiple witches casting together, or even make that a requirement for some spells.

Some spells might be significantly tweaked. For example, fly might require a broom and have a casting time which includes a ritual and sacrificial component, but then have a longer duration (like one night) and still require continued use of the broom (basically kind of a temporary broom of flight, perhaps not as maneuverable as the permanently enchanted magic item). Similarly, some of the spells might create "temporary, must-use-immediately" potions.

I might introduce calendar-based modifiers or requirements for some spells.

[benjoshua]

Just off the top of my head, I'd probably make a classic witch a sub-class similar to the druid, but that doesn't participate in the druidical hierarchy or have the druids' focus/goals. The source of their spells would be both nature and spirit/deity/deity-servant sourced, with spells granted due to pacts (which could be explicit or implicit or both) with such powers.

It could be argued that a witch is as much a sub-set of clerics as they are a sub-set of magic-users. Their deity could be Gaia (Earth Mother), or something like that. There are so many different ways this could go. Maybe it's better that a witch class not be overly defined in order to give DM's flexibility and to make the opponent scarier for players.

[T. Foster]

I did some work on a "malificier" capstone class that could be taken by evil clerics or magic-users who made bargains with infernal powers, based on the necromancy, witchcraft, and sorcery abilities from Gygax's Dangerous Journeys. Lawful evil malificiers are necromancers, neutral evil ones are witches/warlocks, and chaotic evil ones are sorcerers (though I changed all three names so as not to overlap the MU level titles); each gained various special abilities + access to an array of unique spells. The latter part is what kept me from completing the work, because adapting spells from DJ to AD&D is hard and tedious and felt like way too much effort for something that I would only consider appropriate for NPCs.

[JasonZavoda]

Freya

[Landifarne]

Some of the witches' level 1-2 spells derive from their knowledge of the natural world and interacting with neutrally-aligned animal spirits. Young, inexperienced witches use "folksy knowledge" taught to them by their elders and can be of any alignment.

level 1 nature-based spells:
create water, precipitation, purify food/drink/water, endure or resist cold/heat, animal friendship, entangle, invisibility to animals, pass without trace, speak with animals, detect poison, predict weather, locate animals, detect snares and pits

level 2 nature-based spells:
find traps, resist fire, slow poison, snake charm, barkskin, charm person or mammal, feign death, fire trap, goodberry, heat metal, locate plants, obscurement, produce flame, trip, warp wood

At the second level of experience they begin making pacts with spirits that inhabit woods, tombs/dolmens, mountains/caves, rivers, totems and geographic features that have acquired supernatural power one way or another; petty gods, if you will. These petty gods may be of any alignment and how the witch deals with them affects her own alignment. This also opens up spirit-based/supernatural first and second level spells to them:

Level 1 spirit-based spells:
bless, ceremony, command, CLW, detect evil/good, detect magic, invisibility to undead, light, pro from good/evil, sanctuary, fear/remove fear, shillelagh

Level 2 spirit-based spells:
aid, augury, chant, detect charm, dust devil, enthrall, hold person, holy symbol, know alignment, silence-15', spiritual hammer, withdraw, flame blade, reflecting pool

A different mechanism would have to exist where lower level, spirit-based spells are made available as witches gain levels (and begins making pacts with spirits found in the world.) Also, it would become more unwieldy (starting to get into 2E-land specialization) with higher levels, as their alignments start to dictate which spells are available to them...you'd have to create a whole new class.

EDIT:
To gain level 3-4 spells, I'd rule a witch would need to have dealings with supernatural/extra-planar patrons via some conduit and also gain a familiar that acts as a spy for the patron. Familiars would be low-to-average intelligence creatures with d4 HP: booka/killmouli, carbuncles, cats, galtrits, flayskins (jermlaine), mites, pesties, ravens and owls; patrons would be flunkies of demon princes, elemental lords and demi-gods. She can still change patrons, familiars and alignment at this point, but will lose a level of experience.

When the witch starts receiving 5th level spells she is set in her alignment and is essentially selling her soul to the demon prince, elemental lord or demi-god in question.

[bobjester]

Jeremy Reaban did a later edition Warlock conversion to 1e and other OSR era games. These warlocks get their magic from one of 3 patrons - a lower planar fiend, a fey source, or a Great Old One.

Personally, I like witches to have more in common with druids than demon summoning or making pacts with devils, but not rule that out altogether. Perhaps at higher levels, witches would eventually learn from lower plane entities.

[AxeMental]

What is odd is that there is a natural disconnect between "natural world" druids and "supernatural" negative plane stuff. Thats why I always figured they're power source was not any of the PH. The idea of what Fey are tapping into is interesting, old ones as well (though I don't consider the Old Ones as cannon to 1e or any classic fairytale based fantasy). Perhaps the magic is so old or earthy it can fuse elements of demonic and druidic as they use components to concoct their potions and spells (bats wings, snake skin, newts eyes etc.). In other words, use the "nature powers" in some animals and fuse it with normal magic and demonic shit to get results.

[AxeMental]

When I did a witch for MoM I couldn't figure out how to reconcile the magic systems described in 1e and the typical witch stuff from popular culture and literature (as well as RL and folklore). I couldn't see someone being evil also tapping into nature (to me the two are diametrically opposed). Thats why I went with something less then human, a little more "monster" (that and MoM is a monster manual). I was thinking more of the established Grimm's fairy tale sort (green face, long nose or whatever) rather then some mid-level village girl who hangs out collecting weeds and cooking up concoctions for love spells, attends the occasional coven where they do some sacrificing etc.

BEDLAM WITCH
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NO. ENCOUNTERED: 1-7
SIZE: Medium
MOVE: 90ft, flying 120ft
ARMOR CLASS: 10/5 (see below)
HIT DICE: 3+3 or 6+6
ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE: 1d4 or weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
LAIR PROBABILITY: 20%
INTELLIGENCE: Average to High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
LEVEL/X.P.: Witch : 4/ 205 + 4/hp
Warlock : 6/ 865 + 6/hp
Bedlam witches are hideous and extremely evil hags that
dwell in deep forests and swamps. They are quite cunning
and always of chaotic evil alignment. When encountered,
these witches always seem very old (which they may be)
and grotesque, often with disfigurements. Despite the
horrible appearance, they seem to be human, which they
are not ... entirely. The witch-race stems from both
prolonged interaction with evil beings and severe
interbreeding with their own kind over many eons.
Unspeakable rituals are also said to be possible, that can
transform a human into one of these foul creatures. The
skin color of bedlam witches ranges from purple to green,
with rough mole-covered skin.
Bedlam witches are secretive, and prefer desolate and
lonely places in which to dwell and practice their form of
black magic. These places are often, though, within 30
miles of small villages, towns or isolated roads where they
can kidnap, torture or murder at will. These crones spend
the majority of their time in their dark lairs, brewing
potions, magical powders, teas, ointments, and other
hideous concoctions, which they use themselves, or on
occasion sell or trade with other evil creatures. Bedlam
Witches are excellent poison brewers as well, and are
occasionally visited by thieves and assassins who seek
them out to buy their deadly goods (though such
purchases are never cheap and usually require a trade in
blood, such as an innocent village girl, or perhaps a valiant
knight).
The magic used by Bedlam Witches is very old and
primitive, mixing dark shamanism with devil worship. In
fact, all these Witches regularly communicate with devils
and demons, making sacrifices to them on a regular basis.
90% of the time Bedlam Witches will be encountered
wearing an ointment that makes their skin both slippery
and tough. The ointment makes it very difficult to pin
them in combat, and reduces their armor class to 5. Also
75% of the time they will be encountered under the
influence of a magical tonic that allows them to glide
about (to a maximum of 4 feet above the ground) moving
at 120ft.
All Bedlam witches can summon a devil or demon in 1-
10 turns if they know its name. Summoned demons or
devils always require a quality sacrifice before they will
consider aiding the witch. Some sort of a summoning
chamber is required, as are special human fat candles,
powders, blood inks, hair and the like.
Bedlam Witches are normally encountered with 2-8
magical devices in addition to those listed above. The list
below is not exhaustive, and the GM is encouraged to
generate other witch-items as he sees fit.
Some common magical devices:
1. Potion of healing (2-12 hit points).
2. Eyedrops of Infravision (24 hour duration).
3. Wand of stinking cloud (1-3 charges, per the spell)
made of an oak twig.
4. Poison darts 1-4 (death poison at +4 saving throw)
made from thorns.
5. Potion of paralysis (thrown, with a 10ft diameter area
of effect and a duration of 1d10 turns).
6. Powder of mass charm (per the spell with a 10ft radius
of the place where the bag is thrown; duration 1d6 rounds.
7. Springing Spiders (poisonous spiders packed into a
ball are thrown up to 120ft, with a successful attack roll
required. The victim must make a saving throw vs. poison
or die, as the ball breaks apart into thousands of biting
spiders).
8. Ensnarement vine (a 10-30 foot vine that acts like a
snake, winding around 1-2 victims. It follows the command
of its controller, has an AC of 5, and has 1-3 HD. Move
150ft).
9. Levitation Twine (a cord 10-30 feet in length; anything
tied to it levitates and seems weightless). These cords are
often used to transport captured prisoners. The maximum
weight for the twine is 1,000 pounds.
10. Voodoo doll (requires a belonging of the individual
affected). The victim must save vs. magic or can be made
to do anything the possessor wishes. By injuring the doll
the witch can inflict 1d10 hit points per round until the
victim is killed. The witch must be able to see her victim
for the voodoo doll to work (though this can be at any
distance, and may be done from hiding). The Voodoo
Doll can also be used to cause severe pain to the victim.
Those who fail a saving throw against spells will suffer a
penalty of -4 on all attack rolls and collapse from pain in
1-4 rounds.
11. Potion of transformation: Allows the witch to
polymorph into a giant rat, giant spider, giant viper, or
giant scorpion, always retaining, however, the witch’s own
facial features. The effects last 1d10 hours. The affectedperson has all the powers of the transformed monster
and at the moment of transformation into the new form
regains any hit points lost before drinking the potion.
12. Mushroom Spores (either thrown in a bag, or the
mushrooms are planted along paths as a trap). When
the mushrooms are stepped upon they release their
spores in a fine gas like mist. 30% of the time these
mushrooms cause paralysis for 1d10 turns, and 70% of
the time they cause violent hallucinations for 1d10 turns.
During this time, the victim will attempt to deal with
whatever danger he perceives; but his perceptions will
be badly altered.
13. Enchantment oil (this oil is rubbed onto small ordinary
objects such as a book or pebble). Anyone viewing the
affected object will see instead an item (such as a gem
or powerful magical item) of such high value that the
viewer will become enchanted with it and run to it
without caution. Once the item is touched, the illusion
disappears. This enchantment is often used to trick or
trap a victim.
Bedlam-witch potions, poisons and other items of
bewitchment have a lifespan of 1-100 days (depending
on the type), before they dissolve into a foul mud.
Note: using witch magic is an evil act, as their potions
contain components of a questionable nature (often
human or demi-human). Bedlam witches hate the sound
of breaking glass, and will flee the sound as they would
from a 12th level fear spell. Therefore, glass is normally
removed from the lairs of these witches and the area
around them. There is a 30% chance that a Bedlam Witch
will possess a familiar (of the various varieties described
for the magic user spell find familiar); witch-familiars are
always of an evil disposition, if not evil alignment.
When bedlam witches are found in groups of five or
greater they will be accompanied by a 6+6 HD male
warlock. The warlock has all of the powers of a witch,
but can summon a type 1 demon for help in 1d10 rounds,
simply by concentrating. It is common for warlocks to
have the spellcasting power of a cleric or magic user of
4th or greater level in addition to their innate powers as
a member of the witchbreed.
All Bedlam witches can trace their bloodlines back at
least 300 years, and they have a hierarchy reflecting the
power of greater or lesser ancestors.
Bedlam witches speak the languages of many of the
creatures they work with, as well as their own language
and the common tongue.
TREASURE: Magical Items (see above)

[Landifarne]

There's nothing wrong with evil novices perverting and twisting low-level, nature based magic. It would draw the attention of malign creatures and fits the western model/paradigm. Some here can speak more eloquently on the theme of subjugating and/or twisting nature in western myth and culture...

[thedungeondelver]

Stevie Nicks.

[AxeMental]

There's nothing wrong with evil novices perverting and twisting low-level, nature based magic. It would draw the attention of malign creatures and fits the western model/paradigm. Some here can speak more eloquently on the theme of subjugating and/or twisting nature in western myth and culture...

Yeah, its definitely part of Western myth, but does it conflict with the PH description of the multi-verse and power bases? A first level Druid is going to be very anti-negative energy plane. Is unnatural and natural too conflicted to mix freely? Thats why I liked the fey source or simply changing the human into a monster witch (or using natural components combined with supernatural spells in an unholy union of sorts).

[AxeMental]

Stevie Nicks.

Is that how she got Lindsey Buckingham? It would explain things.