Initiative & Spellcasting

[Nagora]

Nagora, if someone attempts to cast a spell requiring a turn of casting time, in combat, do you make them roll initiative on rounds 2-10?

I'll presume this is rhetorical and "no". If I'm incorrect chime in.

I missed this short post in the middle of all the other stuff. I would have the MU's side roll initiative. If the MU is alone then I probably would allow a player to roll initiative to give them the option of abandoning casting before being attacked. Leaving aside the lone-caster case (which I don't think the rules have much to say on), in the general case the initiative system is to see what order things happen and some companion may be able to prevent some attack on the occupied caster.

If combat broke out around an action in process - let's say, a magic-user is casting summon elemental in a non-combat situation but in between starting and finishing, a random encounter occurs and the party protects the MU.

On the first round of combat do you make the MU with the summon-in-process roll initiative?

Same as above. I don't do individual initiative so the question is perhaps not quite applicable.

Also, if you feel that surprise is part of round 1 - do you allow MUs to cast another spell after surprise, in the "rest of round 1", if they got off a 1 segment magic missile in the surprise portion?

The idea that surprise is part of the first round is not well explained in the book but it's hinted at and in the case of mixed surprise/unsurprised parties it's fairly inescapable. If the whole of one side is surprised and the other side isn't then the rules and normal play skip over the remainder of the first round and apparently allow a spellcaster the possibility of casting two spells on consecutive segments (one during surprise, and one immediately after).

But if one party on the generally surprised side is active then there's not really any way of playing the result out than actually going into the detail of what happens in the round while their companions are fumbling about. As I said before, this explains the text that talks about only being able to start casting on the first segment of surprise, because that's just the general case of casting starting on the first segment of the round and is literally true in the case of mixed surprise.

The steps for "encounter and combat" on p61 doesn't call out surprise resolution as a separate step and instead treats the surprise roll as a surrogate for the initiative roll - which is what I do - and treats an unsurprised party as having initiative (or seems to, I think).

There are problems with this, of course. Mainly because the rules as written don't tell us that surprise is a full round when even when only one side is able to act; in fact it tells us the opposite. So there's a frustrating Heisenburg aspect to the question. It's all made worse by the fact that DEX mods are not unusual and so the mixed surprised/unsurprised case is not unusual but the rules never discuss this common case.

For example: Party A encounters a group B at a distance of 9". A rolls 2 and B rolls 4; A is surprised for 2-segs. BtB, the most B can do to close range is 2-segments of movement, maybe 2.4" on a good day, 4.8" with a charge, or fire off half a million arrows BtB.
Now, add a high dex fighter to A. Suddenly that fighter and group B are in a perfectly normal combat round where neither party is surprised, and the remainder of A is dithering about putting it's fighting pants on or whatever. Furthermore, it seems to me, the initiative score is what's showing on the dice and if we ignore the remainder of the party, then if the fighter has that great a DEX then if s/he has a bow then they might even have initiative over B! How many arrows can B fire off now?

So the situation is one of surprise or normal combat depending on whether we look at the surprised portion of A (which might be only one character), or the unsurpised portion (which might be the entire remainder of the party aside from that one average-dex character).

I find it easier to treat these situations as full rounds with the surprised characters "coming to life" after a pause, so all their actions are n-segments later than the dice normally would determine. Spell casting is not allowed as the casters have not been able to "note what spell they intend to cast at the beginning of each round" (look! the thread topic!). But I think the rules simply don't cover the situation properly and it's all house-rules, really.

[Ska]

There is no text that says casting generally begins on segment one per Nagoras earlier post.
There is though actual text both in the PHB and DMG guide that clearly states spell casting begins per the initiative roll.

Surprise rounds are just that, with spell casters who are not surprised able to cast up to a two segment spell. So a caster who has surprised an opponent can cast a spell that will activate on surprise segment two or continue casting into the round. A caster surprised can of course begin casting once surprise has ended.

[Nagora]

There is no text that says casting generally begins on segment one per Nagoras earlier post.
There is though actual text both in the PHB and DMG guide that clearly states spell casting begins per the initiative roll.

Where? You've yet to find these bits of text, nor any of the many other bits of text needed to explain how that works in concert with what we are told. Show me the text that says that a spell completes on c.t.+init-1. Show me the text that explains that spells can spill over and how to handle initiative on that next round. Show me the text that explains that casters (particularly clerics) generally can not expect to get one spell per round(!). I have some further questions but since you can't answer those I'll save the effort. You strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

Surprise rounds are just that, with spell casters who are not surprised able to cast up to a two segment spell.

It is possible to have more than 2 segments of surprise.

[Ratbreath]

There is no text that says casting generally begins on segment one per Nagoras earlier post.
There is though actual text both in the PHB and DMG guide that clearly states spell casting begins per the initiative roll.

Where? You've yet to find these bits of text, nor any of the many other bits of text needed to explain how that works in concert with what we are told. Show me the text that says that a spell completes on c.t.+init-1.

There is no text saying that a spell has d6 segments added to the casting time. There is only this:

SPELL CASTING DURING MELEE

These functions are fully detailed in PLAYERS HANDBOOK. Their commencement is dictated by initiative determination as with other attack forms

If it is sub-segmental, as you proposed earlier, then how does this work out? If the spell began on second 1 of segment 1 according to the dice then how does that function differently than the spell beginning on second 6?

Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round shown on the opponent’s or on their own side’s initiative die, whichever is applicable. (If the spell caster’s side won the initiative with a roll of 5, the attack must come then, not on the opponent’s losing roll of 4 or less.) Thus, all such attacks will occur on the 1st-6th segments of the round.

Say the caster's side (casting magic missile) rolls a 4 and the enemy war dog rolls a 3. Caster wins. What segment does the war dog get its bite? Whichever segment you feel is right there's no problem here so far.

Now say the caster's side rolls a 3 and the war dog rolls a 4. The war dog won, yet the book says its attack will come on the segment of the "applicable" die roll. Neither the 3rd nor the 4th segment happens before a magic missile can be cast. This puts the book at odds with the spell always starting at the beginning of the round.

[EOTB]

One theory gets to interpret text loosely as required to make the theory work and ignore any text that doesn't fit.

The other theory must have explicit, objective references that are impossible to interpret any other way.

[AxeMental]

And it is simply implausible to start on SECOND 1 of every round you win (assuming your using a 1 segment spell, which will be the case for most low level spell casters). Think of what has to go right to fire a MM or sleep spell on the first second of the first segment:

1. see his target to shoot at (normally fighters are moving about in front of him), its reasonable to believe it would take a few seconds at least to get a view of your target,

2. have his spell component (if needed) ready in hand (might he fumble for them in his pockets, could the pouch get stuck etc.),

3. have his footing (loose rocks, slippery conditions) have to be on sound ground to cast,

4. Have free movement of his arms not to mess up his casting (webbing, one of his companions standing too close, a tree branch or stalagmite, etc.)

Firing off a 1 segment spell shouldn't be that much different from firing a bow or crossbow. Yet the archer doesn't always fire his bow on the first segment. Conditions have to be correct before he can pick his target and get a clear shot off.

[Ska]

As already pointed out Nagora you can look at the already cited DMG and PHB page references and see actual language that says casting is determined by initiative rolls. I am not near my books but look at prior post and look up initiative in PHB
which also states initiative determines when casting starts.

We know spells have casting times so using the most basic of logic once casting begins on a certain segment determined by initiative roll casting time is added to determine when spell effect occurs.

[AxeMental]

If an MU wins 2 segments of surprise and he casts a fireball (a 3 segment spell),
as DM how do you adjudicate this (assuming your trying to go by the book)?

1. The fireball goes off at the end of segment 1 of the round (the first 2 segments of casting occurred during surprise). The most the enemy can hope for is a tie, not good enough to stop the spell.

2. You inform the MU he can't do that, he must cast a 1 or 2 segment spell.

3. Something else.

[Philotomy Jurament]

The fireball goes off in segment 1, unless the MU is interrupted.

(I could see the MU being interrupted if an individual on the other side has a high Dex that allows them to be surprised for fewer segments than the rest of their side, and has a ready missile weapon or a fast spell like magic missile. I'm assuming that since the MU is casting fireball there is some distance involved and he's not in danger from melee.)

[Nagora]

There is no text that says casting generally begins on segment one per Nagoras earlier post.
There is though actual text both in the PHB and DMG guide that clearly states spell casting begins per the initiative roll.

Where? You've yet to find these bits of text, nor any of the many other bits of text needed to explain how that works in concert with what we are told. Show me the text that says that a spell completes on c.t.+init-1.

There is no text saying that a spell has d6 segments added to the casting time. There is only this:

SPELL CASTING DURING MELEE

These functions are fully detailed in PLAYERS HANDBOOK. Their commencement is dictated by initiative determination as with other attack forms

If it is sub-segmental, as you proposed earlier, then how does this work out? If the spell began on second 1 of segment 1 according to the dice then how does that function differently than the spell beginning on second 6?

Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round shown on the opponent’s or on their own side’s initiative die, whichever is applicable. (If the spell caster’s side won the initiative with a roll of 5, the attack must come then, not on the opponent’s losing roll of 4 or less.) Thus, all such attacks will occur on the 1st-6th segments of the round.

Say the caster's side (casting magic missile) rolls a 4 and the enemy war dog rolls a 3. Caster wins. What segment does the war dog get its bite? Whichever segment you feel is right there's no problem here so far.

Now say the caster's side rolls a 3 and the war dog rolls a 4. The war dog won, yet the book says its attack will come on the segment of the "applicable" die roll. Neither the 3rd nor the 4th segment happens before a magic missile can be cast. This puts the book at odds with the spell always starting at the beginning of the round.

I dealt with that in detail on the previous page. The dog attacks before the spell because it had initiative -bear in mind that in this situation the dog is standing right beside the MU. We can see (as explained previously) that this segment of the rules applies to casters who win initiative, just as the section on melee weapon speeds Vs spells does. If you can find a hole in that logic (please read the post on the previous page) then I'm happy to hear it, but I'm not going to type it out yet again.

One theory gets to interpret text loosely as required to make the theory work and ignore any text that doesn't fit.

The other theory must have explicit, objective references that are impossible to interpret any other way.

Well, if you want to compare a list of which bits of text need to be interpreted loosely in my interpretation and the d6+ system I'm happy to do so. The reams of invention needed to support d6+ speak for themselves; d6+ starts a cascade of problems while starting at the start of the round begins a cascade of clarification instead. Rather than sparking more and more special cases and exceptions that somehow never made it into the rules, starting on segment-1 makes the text that does exist clearer and easier to understand. If you feel that makes both systems appear equally valid then I can't help you.

And it is simply implausible to start on SECOND 1 of every round you win (assuming your using a 1 segment spell, which will be the case for most low level spell casters). Think what this would take:

1. see his target to shoot at (normally fighters are moving about in front of him),
2. have his spell component ready in hand (he needs to fumble for them in his pockets, that might get stuck etc.),

3. have his footing (loose rocks, slippery conditions) have to be still to cast,

4. not have anything physically in his way, that his hands or arms might bump into (webbing, one of his companions standing too close, a tree branch or stalagmite, etc.

Well, the habitual 1-segment caster has 54 seconds to sort all those things out between castings. There's no difficulty there at all.

As already pointed out Nagora you can look at the already cited DMG and PHB page references and see actual language that says casting is determined by initiative rolls. I am not near my books but look at prior post and look up initiative in PHB which also states initiative determines when casting starts.

Yes. We've been over this and you jump from that to adding a d6 (and subtracting 1, of course) to the start time not only of spell casting but also to everything else. And then, after re-writing half the combat system to make this ridiculous system work, you have the temerity to suggest that anyone not using it should not post on BtB threads!

We know spells have casting times so using the most basic of logic once casting begins on a certain segment determined by initiative roll casting time is added to determine when spell effect occurs.

Logic doesn't work like that. What you have there is a theory. On reviewing the amount of supposition and invention as well as the blind eye we have to assume the rules took when explaining this system, reason suggests that this is a very shaky theory indeed.

Can you find any bit of text that contradicts starting on segment-1? Please read my answer to Axe on the subject of p65 before answering (the same post RB seems to have skipped).

[Nagora]

Actually, screw that. I'm going to try asking simple direct questions.

@Ska: when a cleric casting a 6 segment spell is delayed by 5 segments, what is the procedure on the following round for determining the time her next spell is cast?

[AxeMental]

Actually, screw that. I'm going to try asking simple direct questions.

@Ska: when a cleric casting a 6 segment spell is delayed by 5 segments, what is the procedure on the following round for determining the time her next spell is cast?

I can't answer for SKA but, if the enemy rolled a 5 on initiative, that means the spell caster (who was delayed until then) can start casting on segment 5. So, 5+6=11 segments (therefore it carries over into segment 1 of the next round). Other DMs might rule differently, but I wouldn't allow the caster to do anything else that round, he just gets to cast that spell that carried over (cast another spell, attack etc.). Thats the risk of using a long spell.

If the spell was begun on segment 6 of the round, it would go off on the second segment of the following round. So, if the initiative rolls were PCs 1, monsters 5, the monsters would get their telling blows in on the first segment (and possibly disrupt the spell if they hit the caster). The caster would not be able to do another action that round.

That is how I would rule anyway.

[AxeMental]

Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round shown on the opponent’s or on their own side’s initiative die, whichever is applicable. (If the spell caster’s side won the initiative with a roll of 5, the attack must come then, not on the opponent’s losing roll of 4 or less.) Thus, all such attacks will occur on the 1st-6th segments of the round.

Say the caster's side (casting magic missile) rolls a 4 and the enemy war dog rolls a 3. Caster wins. What segment does the war dog get its bite? Whichever segment you feel is right there's no problem here so far.

Now say the caster's side rolls a 3 and the war dog rolls a 4. The war dog won, yet the book says its attack will come on the segment of the "applicable" die roll. Neither the 3rd nor the 4th segment happens before a magic missile can be cast. This puts the book at odds with the spell always starting at the beginning of the round.

Take a look at the bolded area above.

I think you need to come to grips with this rule ("Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round shown on the opponent’s or on their own side’s initiative die whichever is applicable").

At this point you seem to be ignoring it.

[Nagora]

Actually, screw that. I'm going to try asking simple direct questions.

@Ska: when a cleric casting a 6 segment spell is delayed by 5 segments, what is the procedure on the following round for determining the time her next spell is cast?

I can't answer for SKA but, if the enemy rolled a 5 on initiative, that means the spell caster (who was delayed until then) can start casting on segment 5. So, 5+6=11 segments (therefore it carries over into segment 1 of the next round). Other DMs might rule differently, but I wouldn't allow the caster to do anything else that round (cast another spell, attack etc.). Thats the risk of using a long spell.

If the spell was begun on segment 6 of the round, it would go off on the second segment of the following round. So, if the initiative rolls were PCs 1, monsters 5, the monsters would get their telling blows in on the first segment (and be able to disrupt the spell if they hit the caster). The caster would not be able to do another action that round.

That is how I would do it anyway.

OK. I have a question about that specific answer: you say that "if the enemy rolled a 5 on initiative, that means the spell caster (who was delayed until then) can start casting on segment 5. So, 5+6=11" but that seems wrong to me (I should have used a 7-segment spell but since we're here now...). If the spell was one segment long, would it not go off on segment 5? Therefore this spell would go off on segment 10? It seems that running it per your answer no spell, other than perhaps feather fall, would complete on segment 1. Is that right?

[Nagora]

Oh! PJ in an initiative thread!

The fireball goes off in segment 1, unless the MU is interrupted.

(I could see the MU being interrupted is if an individual on the other side has a high Dex that allows them to be surprised for fewer segments than the rest of their side, and has a ready missile weapon or a fast spell like magic missile. I'm assuming that since the MU is casting fireball there is some distance involved and he's not in danger from melee.)

Assume the opposition has a bowman with 18DEX; how do you run it? It's not that unusual a situation, really. Compared to some discussions...