Knights & Knaves Alehouse

rogatny wrote:Dungeon Delver stated earlier in the thread that the initial reasoning for WS was to pump up the party's damage dealing ability in groups that were quite a bit smaller than the 1970s assumed group of 6 to 8 players plus a similar number of cronies, henchmen, and hangers on. I had heard that earlier as well, and I had thought I had heard/read that reasoning from directly from a Gygaxian source. (Whether a Sorcerer's Scroll or one of his various Internet Q&A sessions, I don't remember.)

If anyone can find a source for this, I'd be grateful, not because I doubt its veracity, so much as that I am curious precisely how Gary couched this explanation.

Also, does anyone recall: did he say that weapon vs. AC and speed factors would be eliminated in his 2e? If so, then I think weapon specialization begins to make a lot more sense to me.

James Maliszewski wrote:
Also, does anyone recall: did he say that weapon vs. AC ... would be eliminated in his 2e? If so, then I think weapon specialization begins to make a lot more sense to me.

If true, then that would be odd, because he not only embraced the concept in Mythus, but he cranked the idea up to 11, RM-style.

TheRedPriest wrote:If true, then that would be odd, because he not only embraced the concept in Mythus, but he cranked the idea up to 11, RM-style.

I don't know that it's true, so perhaps he didn't. I ask the question both because I'm simply curious and because, to me anyway, the weapon vs. AC rules alone go a long way toward making a fighter very effective in combat. Using those rules plus weapon specialization seems increasingly like overkill to me.

Thanks to Joe Bloch's compilation here, I found a Gygax quote about weapon vs. AC and speed factors in his version of 2e:

Actually, yes, as I wanted to remove some things from the AD&D rules--weapon speed factors, weapon vs. armor, and psionics for sure.

It's from one of his ENWorld Q&A threads, I believe.

I don't follow these long rule threads but I was curious as to what was coloring the ennui on the general Board in reference to this thread.

Heh, after reading this forever... SNORRRE... how come no one mentioned Lakofka? This is what I don't get how there can be this back and forth and back and forth and nothing is brought up at all except superficialities in a post-modern perspective?

Lakofka invented this specialization crap. I don't care for it because of that. When I talk with all the old scabs in person about D&D and in this case in particular the archer class comes up ALWAYS.

Why did Weapon Specialization come to be? Because Lakofka was shrewd about giving up powerful magic. I hate to say it directly as I've put it off year after year because he's Jewish but you know what? What the hell!! He was the original "cheap charlie DM". I remember ever nickel and dime mother fucker DM who thought "no free lunch" meant "no rewards ever" and every one of those fucks quoted LEOMUND's TINY HUT like it was something that meant something.

Anyway, I treat specialization like its a roleplaying problem that has to be dealt with ("Now sleep with the sword..." ) and the guy who doesn't take it lucks out with the weapon versatility ("Ooh, another +1 scimitar.." ).

Yeah, and Gary was too much of a wuss to stand up to Len.

Well, what is it? Cheap DMs don't give out magic, but they dispense the awesome power of the .. Game Unbalancing Weapon Specializaton?

Well, which is it? Cheap Bastard or Monty Haul?

Players who cry because their fighter has only simple proficiencies while the Barbarian next to them has a double-spec are pussies anyway.

I do agree with gene on one point. 12 pages on weapon specialization is pretty darned funny .. in the boring funny kinda way. And, I bet this bitch ain't done yet!

TheRedPriest wrote:Yeah, and Gary was too much of a wuss to stand up to Len.

Well, what is it? Cheap DMs don't give out magic, but they dispense the awesome power of the .. Game Unbalancing Weapon Specializaton?

Well, which is it? Cheap Bastard or Monty Haul?

None of the above. He had his nitpicking crap covered at all angles and the cheapie DMs picked and chose from his garbage. This is ancient history.

In regards to Gary on the specialization well thats a good question. There is "Gygaxian" and there is "Hollywood Gygaxian" and while he was "half-patching" trends from the Hollywood hills to be printed in Dragon all we got was pound after pound of regrets years later. He was still alright with Len Lakofka til the end. I hate "buddies" and nepotism when it comes to international game rules like this but he looked out for a lot of flawed "pals". Considering the subcultures brewing at TSR that were opposed to him its understandable but I don't have to like it.

Lakofka sucks.

Addressing more crap here. In regards to DJ, well, thumbs down. Don't think that was ever Gary I think its a half-patch of somebody else's stuff.

In regards to the relevance of speed factors, weapon vs AC, and other "hard stuff" its important that its there for advanced users no matter what anyone says for the umpteenth time of how much it doesn't "work". Yeah, maybe on a computer game where freeform is useless. I talked to gary in person about that stuff and he said it was for hardcore gamers not that it was useless.

geneweigel wrote:Anyway, I treat specialization like its a roleplaying problem that has to be dealt with ("Now sleep with the sword..." )

"I rub my balls on the sword"

?

Guy Fullerton wrote:

geneweigel wrote:Anyway, I treat specialization like its a roleplaying problem that has to be dealt with ("Now sleep with the sword..." )

"I rub my balls on the sword"

?

FTW!!!!!!

Quick! Lock the thread on that note!!

Just thought I’d point out that UA was compiled by Jeff Grubb. The book itself says so (in the intros).

And the PHB was edited by Mike Carr.

UA was edited by Kim Mohan.

TheRedPriest wrote:

Guy Fullerton wrote:

geneweigel wrote:Anyway, I treat specialization like its a roleplaying problem that has to be dealt with ("Now sleep with the sword..." )

"I rub my balls on the sword"

?

FTW!!!!!!

Quick! Lock the thread on that note!!

I'm just going to say it before this thread gets locked, Weapons Specialization is for woosey-men. (ducks from TRP pelting his Female-Witch Ral Partha collection at me).