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Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:55 pm
by Matthew
AxeMental wrote:
So I'm curious, in 0E (or complete 0E I guess I should say), if a MU, cleric and druid look forward to new spells every level or so, a monk, assassin, and thief to better stealth skills, a ranger and paladin to improved abilities, what does the fighter have to look forward to other then HPs? Also, most of my fighters have a shit load of weapons. 6 weapons used all the time is alot. a fighter with 1 (albiet with a good WS +2 or what have you) is not. I think 1E was a happy medium in many ways (including WP).
As far as I can see, it is no different from hit points and fighting ability advancement, in that all classes get access to weapon proficiencies at a lesser rate than fighters. In no way does it compare to spell acquisition or thieving ability, but it is not supposed to either. Who cares, though? Fighters are awesome from the get go and improve in fighting ability at each level (or twice at odd levels if you are not using the 1:1 optional rule).
Falconer wrote:
I feel SURE there must be SOME other thread where you could discuss Weapon Specialization.
More than a couple! Take us there!
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:04 pm
by thedungeondelver
Axe are you deliberately not paying attention? WS/WP ARE FINE FOR SMALL (1-2 OR 2-3) CHARACTER PARTIES THAT WANT TO GO ON BIG ADVENTURES.
Good lord.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:32 pm
by Philotomy Jurament
thedungeondelver wrote:WS/WP ARE FINE FOR SMALL (1-2 OR 2-3) CHARACTER PARTIES THAT WANT TO GO ON BIG ADVENTURES.
I get your point, here, too. Nevertheless, playing the Devil's advocate, if you want to power up a small party why not just bump up their levels? That is, instead of saying "let's make this fighter attack as good as a higher level fighter" why not just
make him a higher level fighter, instead?
(Uhh, whoops -- sorry Falc...)
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:34 pm
by tacojohn4547
AxeMental wrote:So I'm curious, in 0E (or complete 0E I guess I should say), if a MU, cleric and druid look forward to new spells every level or so, a monk, assassin, and thief to better stealth skills, a ranger and paladin to improved abilities, what does the fighter have to look forward to other then HPs?
Why, "
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women", of course!
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:59 pm
by AxeMental
tacojohn4547 wrote:AxeMental wrote:So I'm curious, in 0E (or complete 0E I guess I should say), if a MU, cleric and druid look forward to new spells every level or so, a monk, assassin, and thief to better stealth skills, a ranger and paladin to improved abilities, what does the fighter have to look forward to other then HPs?
Why, "
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women", of course!
There's always that I suppose.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:29 am
by AxeMental
The key to remember is that 1E played with UA in full is a different game then 1E played without UA. When you have a fighter with WS, a cavilier, a barbarian...any of this, and the table notices. The dynamics change, and that was by design. So, for it to be presented to someone new to the game with the other books is a bit of a put off to me.
The thing needs a warning label on it.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:36 pm
by rogatny
outlander78 wrote:and weapon specialization was no big deal - +1/+2 isn't a huge bump up.
1e weapon specialization was quite a bit more powerful than just that and was included in a book with a number of other pc power-ups. UA, taken as a whole, significantly upped the power level of 1e characters.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:38 pm
by Chainsaw
rogatny wrote:outlander78 wrote:and weapon specialization was no big deal - +1/+2 isn't a huge bump up.
1e weapon specialization was quite a bit more powerful than just that
I think rate of attack also increases faster, for example. You remember capitalbill? Your guy has spear specialization.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:39 pm
by capitalbill
+1 to hit, +2 to damage, 3 attacks per 2 rounds. Double specialization gets nasty: +3 to hit, +3 to damage. When stacked with other bonuses (racial weapon, high strength, magical weapon, etc) weapon specialization makes a decent difference.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:29 pm
by Philotomy Jurament
outlander78 wrote:2E was the first AD&D I saw, and weapon specialization was no big deal - +1/+2 isn't a huge bump up.
Here's why I think the 1e/UA weapon specialization rules are significant:
Philotomy Jurament, in a previous WS discussion, wrote:...a normal man has between 1-7 hit points and "combat ability" anywhere from -3 to 0, with zero being the "0-level" column on the Fighter attack matrix. Everything in the game scales off the assumptions about what a "normal man" is and how that average man is described. The classic weapon, a sword, does 1-8 damage, which nicely balances with the 1-7 hit point range of the normal man. I think the concept of scaling off the "normal man" extends to things like the mercenary levels, monster "levels," random encounter tables and no. appearing, the efficacy of magic weaponry and armor, et cetera.
A 1st level (veteran) Fighter has a base of 1-10 hit points and "combat ability" (which refers only to the chance to hit, ignoring hit dice) of 1 (THAC0 19). He's a touch better than the average (normal) man, but he's no Conan or John Carter. He's probably not even Moonglum. For example, the rules assume a 1st level Fighter is roughly a 1-to-1 match with a 1HD orc. (The orc has slightly lower hit dice, but a slightly better "combat ability.") Experienced sergeants might be 1st level Fighters, local heroes and famous captains might be 4th level, and legends and lords are 8th or 9th level on up.
If you give that Fighter double specialization with the longsword, you're giving him "combat ability" 4 (THAC0 16), which is the same chance to hit that a 5th level Fighter gets, normally. It gives a 1st level Fighter the same combat ability that a bugbear has! Better, actually, because every other round the specialized fighter is getting an extra attack. An additional attack is roughly equivalent to a +2 to hit, which means on those rounds the 1st level Fighter now has the equivalent of combat ability 6, which means his chance of hitting is slightly better than an ogre's. (And that doesn't even touch on his damage. With a longsword, 4-11 / 4-15, even if he's got a Strength of 9.)
EDIT:
Now, you may say "so what -- it makes the Fighter more powerful and that's the whole point." But the thing is, D&D already has a structure for powering up: character level. Why not just advance the level? Why change the way you need to think about Fighters and the way the class scales against the rest of the system if you just want more powerful characters?
The most reasonable response to that is "I want to increase the power of the Fighter relative to the other classes." In that case, I still think you're better off tweaking other factors that don't mess with the basic meaning of fighter levels (i.e. "an X level fighter is this tough"). You could put a floor on the Fighter's hit die rolls (e.g., any roll less than 5 is treated as 5), which makes Fighters tougher without changing any system fundamentals or the "meaning" of an X level Fighter. Or you could lower the XP requirements for the Fighter, which will make the Fighter advance faster, making him more powerful relative to the other classes without changing the "meaning" of an X level Fighter. Et cetera. Even though these examples bump up the Fighter relative to the other classes, "4th level Fighter" means the same thing, combat wise, as it does in the original rules. You don't have to mentally adjust your definition of "4th level Fighter" and its capabilities vs. the rest of the system (e.g. 4th level dungeon, 4HD monsters, et cetera). I like that approach better.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:38 pm
by rogatny
The one thing PJ forgot to mention was that if you're using the attack routine rule from the DMG as written, the fighter will nearly always have the first strike during the first round of combat.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:43 pm
by Philotomy Jurament
rogatny wrote:The one thing PJ forgot to mention was that if you're using the attack routine rule from the DMG as written, the fighter will nearly always have the first strike during the first round of combat.
Good point. (Also, I edited my post, above, to add some more thoughts.)
EDIT: What's ironic about this is that I'm allowing WS in the new game I just started...
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:47 pm
by Terrex
I grabbed my UA tonight. Here's an elf PC (Dex 18) in the PHB v. the same elf PC (Dex 18) specialized in a long bow per UA firing at the same target 6' to 30' away:
PHB
1st level
+3 "to hit" Dex Bonus
+1 "to hit" Elf Long Bow Bonus
Total: +4 "to hit", Max Damage = 12
UA
1st level
+3 "to hit" Dex Bonus
+1 "to hit" Elf Bonus
+2 "to hit" "Point Blank" Range Bonus (Specialization)
+2 damage "Point Blank" Range Bonus (Specialization)
"Point Blank" double damage including modifier = 6-16 per arrow (Specialization)
There's actually mention of a strength bonus, too! But, I'm not even going to go there...
Total: +7 to hit, Max Damage = 32 (this is a 1st level fighter!)
We had one specialzied bowman. But, after that, it was never again... I realize this is an extreme example. But, the BTB UA fighter power-up is significant and the fact the above made the cut into the book is really telling. Stuff like this calls for Axe's warning label.
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:00 pm
by Philotomy Jurament
Terrex wrote:I grabbed my UA tonight. Here's an elf PC (Dex 18) in the PHB v. the same elf PC (Dex 18) specialized in a long bow per UA...Total: +7 to hit, Max Damage = 32 (this is a 1st level fighter!)
Now give him surprise...
Re: Unearthed Arcana Reprint
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:09 pm
by Terrex
Philotomy Jurament wrote:Terrex wrote:I grabbed my UA tonight. Here's an elf PC (Dex 18) in the PHB v. the same elf PC (Dex 18) specialized in a long bow per UA...Total: +7 to hit, Max Damage = 32 (this is a 1st level fighter!)
Now give him surprise...
LOL. Yeah, I thought of that, but thought I'd be overstating my case... In regard to the strength bonus, does that get doubled, too? There were probably a few specialized Grugach (+2 strength) running around in various campaigns.
I didn't mention the specialized bowman also also looses his first arrow before the initiative roll if the arrow is nocked. He gets 3/1 @ 7th and 4/1 @ 13th. So at 7th level, the specialized bowman can do up to 48 points of damage in a single round with a non-magical bow.