AD&D 1e Reprint Thread

[blackprinceofmuncie]

I just hope that they reset the interior typography; even to copy the line and page breaks exactly. I cannot see trying to create printing plates by shooting negs from a printed book.

They are scanning the pages directly to .pdf and printing from that according to Mike Mearls.

[Kramer]

I just hope that they reset the interior typography; even to copy the line and page breaks exactly. I cannot see trying to create printing plates by shooting negs from a printed book.

They are scanning the pages directly to .pdf and printing from that according to Mike Mearls.

...um...yeah...I have no comment.

Actually I do have a comment; you can polish a turd, but you'll just end up with a shiny turd. That said, I'll probably get them anyway...for nostalgia sake...I feel so dirty.

[austinjimm]

Hmm. As I was in the area, I stopped at a small comic shop in Austin today and asked if they were getting these. The answer was an enthusiastic "yes," and the guy asked me if I wanted to do a pre-order. (This was before I saw the cover art.) I hesitated and asked if they were going to be stocking them on the shelves. He said yes, but he didn't know how many. I go by the place once a week, so I told him I'd wait on the pre-order.

Then I got home and saw the cover art. I started thinking maybe I should've done the pre-order thing.

Then I read this:

They are scanning the pages directly to .pdf and printing from that according to Mike Mearls.

Now I really want a good look at this thing up close before I spend a cent. There are almost always one or two copies of the originals at Half-Price books, generally ranging from $8 to $15 per book (not to mention I already have a frikkin shelf-load of multiple, multiple copies of the originals already).

For $40 a book these better look damn nice-- inside and out.

[foxroe]

While we would much prefer an exact reprint of the originals (pre-Easley covers of course), we all know that will never ever happen.

I'm still so thoroughly cheezed that they're reprinting 1ed. So, these covers are more than adequate.

In fact, the more I look at them... fuckit. I think they're gorgeous.

So long as the binding and the interiors don't suck, I'm getting them, if for nothing else other than to support the Gygax Memorial Fund.

[austinjimm]

If I'm not mistaken, a good deal of the interior art was halftone images (please correct me if I'm wrong). If they are simply scanning these to a PDF won't there be all kinds of weird issues with moire, etc? I really need to see this before I shell out the cash. It's starting to smell a little stinky.

[TRP]

I'd be surprised if they served up a shit sandwich on this. It's not impossible, but it would be one of the stupidest things that they could do.

[SimperingToad]

If I'm not mistaken, a good deal of the interior art was halftone images (please correct me if I'm wrong). If they are simply scanning these to a PDF won't there be all kinds of weird issues with moire, etc? I really need to see this before I shell out the cash. It's starting to smell a little stinky.

The moire pattern becomes a big problem if they try to rescreen an existing screen. It might be okay if they do a nice, high res scan as b/w rather than grayscale, but a lot may depend on the press involved. It might be more noticible on the tables than the art, I'm thinking.

It's still going to suffer the issues of being a generation removed regardless. Copy of a copy of a copy, etc.

[austinjimm]

If I'm not mistaken, a good deal of the interior art was halftone images (please correct me if I'm wrong). If they are simply scanning these to a PDF won't there be all kinds of weird issues with moire, etc? I really need to see this before I shell out the cash. It's starting to smell a little stinky.

The moire pattern becomes a big problem if they try to rescreen an existing screen. It might be okay if they do a nice, high res scan as b/w rather than grayscale, but a lot may depend on the press involved. It might be more noticible on the tables than the art, I'm thinking.

It's still going to suffer the issues of being a generation removed regardless. Copy of a copy of a copy, etc.

Since we're on the subject, how were the originals produced in the pre-computer printing era? Was there some kind of "plate" for each page in the book?

[Kramer]

Since we're on the subject, how were the originals produced in the pre-computer printing era? Was there some kind of "plate" for each page in the book?

Each page would have been lovingly laid out on some sort of board (10 pt bristol weight frequently, though sometimes someone would splurge on illustration board), the type would be set by a typesetter from a typewritten manuscript, the illustrations would have been sized and positioned using Xerox copies of the originals. These would then be pasted down with either rubber cement or wax (waxing was the big technological advent of the later 1970's, so I am betting TSR would have used rubber cement, being a young start-up at the time). These boards would then be shot with a stat camera (basically makes big black and white negatives). Once sizing for the images was finalized, the art would also be shot on a stat camera. These negs then would have the text with the for position only (FPO) Xerox images stripped together with the high resolution final images into a master negative, which would then be burned to metal printing plates.

It all makes me very nostalgic...

[Philotomy Jurament]

Reminds me of yearbook and newspaper classes in high school. We had computers and desktop publishing software, but they were still teaching us layouts by hand.

[ken-do-nim]

So, pardon me if I'm not hailing these covers as any type of "old school" victory. They're a compromise, and that's fine, but that's all it is. It doesn't mean I'm not allowed to wish they had been better.

If these covers represent a compromise, what would you have considered a victory? If these covers are "okay" and just barely good enough for you not to cancel your order, what would you have considered good? That, I guess, is what I'm failing to see - what the folks complaining about these covers would rather have seen instead. The exact original covers (and, if so, which printings? would they need to have the TSR logo and Lake Geneva address? would they be allowed to add a bar-code and UPC?)? New pieces of art that would have miraculously looked nothing like any art produced by this company in the last 30 years? Something else?

Personally I find the cover of Swords & Wizardry Core to be the best homage to the 1E PHB I've seen - amazing new art in the old style, but clearly beckoning to the original.

[austinjimm]

These boards would then be shot with a stat camera (basically makes big black and white negatives). Once sizing for the images was finalized, the art would also be shot on a stat camera. These negs then would have the text with the for position only (FPO) Xerox images stripped together with the high resolution final images into a master negative, which would then be burned to metal printing plates.

Well then, where are the original negatives and plates? They were still reprinting the originals as late as 1990 (according to the Acaeum). WOTC must have acquired the plates and negs when they took over TSR in 1997. Were the plates & negs lost at some point? Wouldn't it be better to print from these than a scan to PDF?

[Kramer]

Well then, where are the original negatives and plates? They were still reprinting the originals as late as 1990 (according to the Acaeum). WOTC must have acquired the plates and negs when they took over TSR in 1997. Were the plates & negs lost at some point? Wouldn't it be better to print from these than a scan to PDF?

Plates are used once and then tossed. Negs oxidize after a number of years if not properly stored. So, I would have to assume that at this point those originals are lost to time. The hope would be that the original paste-up boards still existed, which I kinda doubt. Although, I did just throw away all my paste-up boards from a freelance job circa 1988 (which were still in fair condition), so, ya never know...

EDIT: It's possible, however unlikely, that the original printer kept a stash of master negs. But then, printers probably cull old jobs every few years if a given project does not come up for reprint. So, it is almost certain all these components no longer exist. I mean, after D&D 3.0 came out, who ever expected WotC to reprint these books in any fashion? I know we all thought it would be cool if they did, but did anybody really think it would happen?

[Kramer]

If I'm not mistaken, a good deal of the interior art was halftone images (please correct me if I'm wrong). If they are simply scanning these to a PDF won't there be all kinds of weird issues with moire, etc? I really need to see this before I shell out the cash. It's starting to smell a little stinky.

Without a crap-load of retouching the images after scanning the pages, yes, I would expect issues with moires in any halftones; no matter how high a resolution you scan it at. Especially since the original books did not use a very fine halftone screen. A skilled Photoshop guy (or gal) might be able able to mitigate the effect a bit, but you're not going to get rid of it completely. But, I think most of the art having been line art, this is probably an issue WotC was willing to live with.

[Kramer]

Considering what those covers could have looked like, I can live with this.

The more I think on this, the more irritated I get. You know, if they really wanted to memorialize Gary properly with a re-release of these books, they should have reset the typography at the least. I understand about the art; much of the originals probably don't exist anymore, and there's not much more you can do to retain them then to scan nice clean copies from a printed product. I find myself doing that all the time on one project or another. But at least the type can be reset for cryin' out loud. I suppose it's possible, what they might be doing is scanning everything into Acrobat, and then running OCR on it. This could then be used to reset the type. Hell, I even did that on those crappy PDFs that RPGNow.com was selling aways back to end up with Word files of the three books...[I wonder if they would be interested in buying these files off of me...] One can only hope.

Forgive me for fixating on resetting the type, but it just chaps my hide to think they might just be printing what amounts to high resolution Xerox copies.