Here comes 5e.

[Benoist]

I think I understand what you are saying, that it's a good thing if WotC and the rest of the RPG hobby in general is finally "getting it" and recognizing that the OSR has some valuable insights about the game that they should be paying attention to. I agree with that.

That's what I'm saying. And that we have something to bring to the table, so we might as well sit down, share those insights and see what happens.

But I think if you leave WotC out of that equation and they end up failing, the trend in the greater hobby is still going to continue, because I don't think Wotc is the de facto leader of the RPG hobby anymore. That ship sailed in 2008 when they fired around half of the D&D playing community as customers.

I don't know about that, by which I mean, not that I disagree with you, but I really have no idea how it's going to play out as far as the wider hobby's health is concerned. What I do know is that there's a window of opportunity here to get some measure of understanding between playstyles, and to have a sort of lingua franca coming out of this, lingua franca which then could lead to other things, like maybe the realization that we in fact need different perfect types of spaghetti sauces instead of just one.

This could be an intermediary step, not an end in itself, is what I'm saying. Or it could totally bomb and backlash and whatnot, like I said, I don't know. But just not caring is the surest way to miss whatever opportunity the situation has to offer, and then we'll be surprised that WotC once again didn't listen or care. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[EOTB]

If our objective is to re-establish early 1E style role playing on a wide scale (with in store presence) we probably do. Of course, its very unrealistic to think WOTC will suddenly become Gygaxian (or produce a product that appeals to those of us with that sort of taste).

But does anyone here even think that's a realistic goal? Even if we assume that WotC is utterly sincere (which I don't), what are the odds that something like Gygaxian AD&D in pen and paper form is going to fly as a mass market product in 2012? I just don't see it.

I don't think anyone is thinking a return to 1982 sales is going to happen, no. But the discussion about this announcment on non-hobby sites makes it clear that there is a significant market that has not been served in 25 years, and they would like to buy what they remember.

You don't think that even if 10-15% of them were to pick up the books just for nostalgia's sake that WOTC couldn't double their sales? (and let's face it - $75 - $100 for a new set of 3 core books is well within the discretionary income of most people in their early 40's. I took my wife out to a nice dinner and a movie last weekend and the bill for that evening was $125)

Are these people going to be DDI subscribers? No. Maybe enough will share it with their kids that you get another 50% of those customers bringing a casual gamer or above into the hobby. Who might be DDI subscribers.

Let's face it - there's a lot of lifestyle hobbyists out there who are not going to be effective prostelytizers for your product, because they aren't socially adept. If I were WotC I would want to get my game back in the hands of the most influential customer segment I could. Parents, to hook the kids, and kids who hook their friends. Not the gamer funk dude who comes to Gen Con every year. They're the splatbook market who provides gravy profit, but not the core that keeps the game fiscally healthy at a sustainable level.

Point is, even a wildly successful uniting of the current market still spells a gradual decline of the overall product line. You've got to break out.

[thedungeondelver]

I don't think it's going to produce Gygaxian AD&D any more than if I take ground beef, an egg, breadcrumbs and other things and mash them up and put them in a pan I'll get steak out of the oven an hour later.

However, I do like meatloaf. Just not over everything else.

What I'm hoping is that it will produce a game that I can ratchet everything down to as close to AD&D. But this is secondary to my largest hope and that is a game that supports AD&D officially again.

[geezerdm]

So, do we want to be relevant to the hobby at large?

I'm still not sure what it is that we're doing that's "relevant" or indeed what "relevant" would mean in this context. Do you mean we've got some insights into the history of the hobby and other ways of playing RPGs than as analog video games? Or do you mean something else?

I mean that our work, ideas, creations, experimentation, insight and experience, becomes part of the overall RPG dialogue carried on by hobbyists, exerts an influence, serves as inspiration and blazes trails for designers and gamers outside our immediate circle.

That's already happening.

[thedungeondelver]

I want to stay relevant. If for no other reason than to see the hobby stay relevant. A video interview with the project lead for Skyrim shows him mentioning the various influences and of course he says "D&D". Blizzard sought Gary's stamp of approval on Diablo (he passed, but there we are).

We're gonna look up one day and filmmakers and all other sorts of media makers are going to stop saying "D&D" as an influence. They'll say "Diablo" and "Final Fantasy" and "Harry Potter" - but D&D will be missing from that list and I'd rather not see that.

[James Maliszewski]

I want to stay relevant. If for no other reason than to see the hobby stay relevant. A video interview with the project lead for Skyrim shows him mentioning the various influences and of course he says "D&D". Blizzard sought Gary's stamp of approval on Diablo (he passed, but there we are).

We're gonna look up one day and filmmakers and all other sorts of media makers are going to stop saying "D&D" as an influence. They'll say "Diablo" and "Final Fantasy" and "Harry Potter" - but D&D will be missing from that list and I'd rather not see that.

Clearly, I have different desires and expectations with regards to this hobby than a lot of folks here, so I'm going to quietly bow out for the time being and let everyone enjoy themselves without my pessimism.

[MageInBlack]

For me, as Random said, but on the other hand, I'm quite happily disassociated from any emotion on the issue, and plan on having fun watching gamer's reactions as the process unfolds.

Pretty much my take. Most of us are sticking with our editions/clones no matter what. If World of Warcraft is taking all their revenue, then they should just ditch the "pencil and paper" part and work on perfecting Dungeons & Dragons Online. These types of RPGs are simply dying due to technology and that is probably just the way of things. The majority of people keeping the hobby going are the 30-40 somethings (I am still in the 30 somethings) who played during a time when rich people had Apple II's and we had to beg parents to get an Atari for Christmas so we can play that blocky "Adventure" game just to end up in the dragon's stomach while a bat picks it up and carries around from screen to screen. The game had something back then that is hard to compete with today...especially trying to get new people into the hobby.

My opinion is that the small guys are going to be successful at publishing games. The ones that do it as a "side business" because it is interesting to them. They have a normal job-type-job that they do every day...so if their game does not rake in the cash, it just doesn't really matter. As soon as these people quite their jobs and try to make it as a business...then things will probably begin to crumble. They will have to keep generating revenue so they will pump out book-after-book, edition-after-edition just to keep the lights on.

The "hype" just isn't enough to propagate through the world like it kinda did back in the day. The time when you would play with some people and half of them would go out and buy books and then infect a few others.

Now we live in an age where everyone has laptops and you can go to LAN parties or simply hang out in one room and play games like WOW all day. They require no homework from a DM or any imagination due to the pretty graphics of double D elves. I will continue to expose my kids to this type of gaming and maybe it will stick or simply fade away. My wife and I play with two other married couples of 30-somethings that played 2e in college once upon a time. One of them is running us in a 4e game and I happily signed on to play just to play something with other adults. Even if it takes 4 hours to get through 3 rooms.

[blackprinceofmuncie]

This could be an intermediary step, not an end in itself, is what I'm saying. Or it could totally bomb and backlash and whatnot, like I said, I don't know. But just not caring is the surest way to miss whatever opportunity the situation has to offer, and then we'll be surprised that WotC once again didn't listen or care. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Unfortunately, the scenario you are proposing isn't the scenario I see WotC proposing. An open discussion with designers about game design and the future of D&D in general might indeed be a significant moment for the hobby in general. But WotC is offering an open beta of a single game; one which will by necessity having its major infrastructure already in place by the time the playtest document goes out. I'm not saying that participating in that process is a bad thing, just that I don't see it as an issue of hobby-wide importance - especially the OSR side of the hobby.

[T. Foster]

The notion that our perspective and WotC's perspective are totally irreconcilable is bullshit. There's no reason they can't provide what we want, they have just, in the past, chosen not to. The so-called-OSR proves that it's possible to produce new content in the "1E style," and that there's an appetite for it. The only hurdles to WotC producing such content themselves are: 1) deciding that this is a market-segment worth serving, 2) overcoming their preconceptions against doing so (to belabor the spaghetti sauce analogy (watch the video if you haven't already done so!) it's as if everyone working for Prego really disliked extra chunky sauce and had spent the last 20 years convinced that "everyone" knew thin sauce was objectively better and that the proper way to make extra chunky sauce is to put an "extra chunky" label on the same old thin sauce, because surely that must be what the people who claim to like extra chunky sauce really want), and 3) becoming capable (or finding and hiring people who are already capable) of producing it. #3 is the biggest obstacle, possibly insurmountable - deciding "we're going to produce new 1E style content" is one thing, actually producing it and having it not suck is another -- and let's state clearly and unambiguously for the record right here that hiring some ex-TSR hack who has a recognizable name and pedigree but never produced anything any good the first time around is NOT the formula for success here: those guys had their day in the sun, and it ended a long time ago, and NONE of them deserve a second one. But if we've won on point #1 (which it's looking increasingly like we already have) and on point #2 (still working on it...) and point #3 is our biggest worry, well, that's a worry I'd be happy to have

[francisca]

I agree, Trent. I just hope that if they decide that "we" aren't a market worth pursuing (which is a business decision, not a repudiation of our ways, at least in my mind), they continue to leave us alone, while perhaps looking on the old school crowd once in a while and finding some inspiration.

[Ghul]

Yes, they should make Stuart Marshall editor-in-chief. That would arrest my attention.

[Matthew]

I think you guys are mad. No way, no how, do I want to hitch my wagon to WotC and whatever take on D&D they happen to have in a given year. I would bet my bottom dollar (no pounds, though) that the single most recognisable promotional tool that D&D ever had was the Saturday morning cartoon. That was certainly how I first became aware of the game. An open source AD&D is great for the community, I cannot understand why anybody would want to let any of that hard fought for credibility and authority devolve back onto WotC and Hasbro. Yeah, it is cool if D&D continues to be a recognisable brand name and all that, but that is not something that ought to be inherently linked to the AD&D game. I fear that if WotC really did decide to start supporting AD&D again [i.e. producing new products] it would be a net loss for the community, marginalising everything in favour of the "real thing". Hey, maybe that is what they should call this next edition "Real Dungeons & Dragons" RD&D.

[T. Foster]

Yes, they should make Stuart Marshall editor-in-chief. That would arrest my attention.

I said this a few months ago (that I'd only become really interested in what WotC was doing when I learned that they'd hired Stuart Marshall and/or Matt Finch). I was joking, but I wasn't kidding. In my dream-world they'd actually hire Gene Weigel as line manager (i.e. he doesn't write or edit the stuff himself, but he has final say over its content and direction), but I'm not holding my breath

[Benoist]

The notion that our perspective and WotC's perspective are totally irreconcilable is bullshit. There's no reason they can't provide what we want, they have just, in the past, chosen not to. The so-called-OSR proves that it's possible to produce new content in the "1E style," and that there's an appetite for it. The only hurdles to WotC producing such content themselves are: 1) deciding that this is a market-segment worth serving, 2) overcoming their preconceptions against doing so (to belabor the spaghetti sauce analogy (watch the video if you haven't already done so!) it's as if everyone working for Prego really disliked extra chunky sauce and had spent the last 20 years convinced that "everyone" knew thin sauce was objectively better and that the proper way to make extra chunky sauce is to put an "extra chunky" label on the same old thin sauce, because surely that must be what the people who claim to like extra chunky sauce really want), and 3) becoming capable (or finding and hiring people who are already capable) of producing it. #3 is the biggest obstacle, possibly insurmountable - deciding "we're going to produce new 1E style content" is one thing, actually producing it and having it not suck is another -- and let's state clearly and unambiguously for the record right here that hiring some ex-TSR hack who has a recognizable name and pedigree but never produced anything any good the first time around is NOT the formula for success here: those guys had their day in the sun, and it ended a long time ago, and NONE of them deserve a second one. But if we've won on point #1 (which it's looking increasingly like we already have) and on point #2 (still working on it...) and point #3 is our biggest worry, well, that's a worry I'd be happy to have

I like this, and I think you're correct. I think it can play out in any number of ways, some of them bad, some of them good, and I could argue about the skills of some of the people concerned, but the truth is, I think this is an honest assessment of the situation as we know it. Now, I still think that by participating to the efforts going on about D&D Next we might work way more efficiently on #2 rather than just standing on a different rock preaching to our own crowd. If we succeed on #2, #3 will follow.

[T. Foster]

I think you guys are mad. No way, no how, do I want to hitch my wagon to WotC and whatever take on D&D they happen to have in a given year. I would bet my bottom dollar (no pounds, though) that the single most recognisable promotional tool that D&D ever had was the Saturday morning cartoon. That was certainly how I first became aware of the game. An open source AD&D is great for the community, I cannot understand why anybody would want to let any of that hard fought for credibility and authority devolve back onto WotC and Hasbro. Yeah, it is cool if D&D continues to be a recognisable brand name and all that, but that is not something that ought to be inherently linked to the AD&D game. I fear that if WotC really did decide to start supporting AD&D again [i.e. producing new products] it would be a net loss for the community, marginalising everything in favour of the "real thing". Hey, maybe that is what they should call this next edition "Real Dungeons & Dragons" RD&D.

I don't see how WotC producing new 1E-style rules and content detracts from what we currently have. As a worst-case scenario, they put out some crap, we all ignore it (or possibly get sucked into buying a bit of it, but quickly learn to ignore it) and continue playing with our old books and producing/buying OSRIC content (i.e. the current status quo). In anything other than the worst-case scenario we're getting new content that appeals to our aesthetic and game-philosophical tastes to supplement what we already have, only with a higher public profile and (presumably) better production values - nicer graphics and art, integration into some sort of online community, etc. And if after a while WotC decides this isn't as profitable as they thought it would be and changes direction again (or lets the quality drop) then we just revert back to our old books and OSRIC again.

OSRIC is the game-changer here, because it's a permanent check on WotC's monopoly -- if we don't like what they're doing with the brand, we always have an alternative. There was nothing comparable in the 2E days, or even the C&C days. The shoe is on the other foot than it's ever been on before and we're in the driver's seat -- if WotC wants our business they're going to have to give us what we want, because if they don't we can get it somewhere else. WotC needs us a whole lot more than we need them.