What's up with the Zeb Cook hatred?

[rogatny]

It's interesting that Aaron Allston was a freelancer and never an actual employee of TSR, because he (along with Bruce Heard) is really the Face of the Classic D&D branch post-Mentzer -- between GAZ1, the Dawn of the Emperors and Hollow World boxed sets, editing the Rules Cyclopedia, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting (but that Akrasia could surely fill me in on ). To take it a step further, I begin to wonder if in some sense the genrally high quality of his material (even if not necessary in line with my personal tastes) is in some sense a direct consequence of his NOT being an actual employee of TSR (and thus being more insulated from the daily travails of dealing with the crazy management and such)?

I've noted before, both with the generally higher quality of the free-lance stuff for D&D (as opposed to the AD&D stuff - 1e and 2e - of the same period) and the number of 2e aficionados who state that the fan created stuff in Dungeon is where the "good" adventures for are, that it's a really telling statement on what was going on in-house with TSR during the time period.

The list of contributors to the D&D/Known World line from 1987 to 1993 is actually pretty impressive, including, but not limited to:
Ken Rolston (Paranoia, d6 Star Wars, Runequest, etc.)
Steve Perrin (C.O.C., Runequest, Elf Quest, etc.)
Ed Greenwood (Mr. Forgotten Realms)
Scot Haring (Ghostbusters, etc. )
Jim Bambra (Warhammer, etc.)
Carl Sargent (2e Greyhawk, Shadowrun)
Allen Varney (Paranoia XP, etc.)
David Ritchie (Dragonquest, etc.)
Paul Jaquays (Judges Guild, Runequest, etc.)

[Zotster]

Thanks for the info!

Which Gazetteer did you work on?

I think it was Gaz12, I'd have to look on my bookshelf (I'm at work now) to make sure.

[Zotster]

It's interesting that Aaron Allston was a freelancer and never an actual employee of TSR, because he (along with Bruce Heard) is really the Face of the Classic D&D branch post-Mentzer -- between GAZ1, the Dawn of the Emperors and Hollow World boxed sets, editing the Rules Cyclopedia, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting (but that Akrasia could surely fill me in on ). To take it a step further, I begin to wonder if in some sense the genrally high quality of his material (even if not necessary in line with my personal tastes) is in some sense a direct consequence of his NOT being an actual employee of TSR (and thus being more insulated from the daily travails of dealing with the crazy management and such)?

This is an interesting comment. Not sure that I have much light to shed on it. As I said long ago in this thread, the year's schedule was presented to us and we picked which projects we wanted to work on. It always ended up (at least during my time there) that there was a disproportionate number of D&D products that weren't chosen by staffers and thus went to freelancers. So I think that's why a lot fell to Aaron. Not sure if that held true when Jim was there or not.

A strictly personal observation that may or may not be relevant: While I was at TSR, I thought the average level of writing (not commenting on creativity) of freelance writers was generally higher than that of staffers. There were people like Rick Swann(sp?) that I was very impressed with. I *think* (though don't know for sure) that Bruce Heard, the freelance coordinator guy, was fairly ruthless about discarding freelancers he didn't think were up to snuff. Without mentioning any names, as this is just a personal opinion, I would say that if I had to rank the designers whose projects I worked on in order of writing skill, I would count only two of the in-house designers among the top ten.

FWIW,
Mike

[Zotster]

I don't suppose either you or Mike were at a high enough decision-making level to be able to shed any light on why TSR didn't just quietly retire the World of Greyhawk line once Gary was out of the picture (and especially once the Forgotten Realms came fully online). Doing so would surely have saved a whole lot of people a whole lot of grief and spite. Maybe it's just an accidental consequence of how resources were allocated and such, but from an outsider's perspective it seems like the unremittingly bad products released for Greyhawk in the late 80s (Rose Estes novels, really terrible RPGA-originated modules, the joke Castle Greyhawk module, Jim Ward's utterly vacuous hardback, etc.) were almost a deliberate attempt to sabotage the "Greyhawk" brand (which, in later years, after we'd learned about all the back room politics, seemed to fit together logically -- that TSR was deliberately sullying Greyhawk to spite Gary (and, perhaps, decrease the commercial viability of him doing a pseudo-Hawk on his own?).

I have no doubt you guys will deny that any such conspiracy existed, at least at the level you were working at, but if the really awful quality of so much of the post-Gygax Greyhawk content (it wasn't until the 2E era -- with the City of Greyhawk boxed set and accompanying modules -- that anything even marginallt decent was released under that brand, and even then it felt more like a crypto-Forgotten Realms and that what was charming and appealing about the original was being lost amid an attempt to "copy what works") is entirely coincidental to any malicious intent and truly just represents a shortage of resources -- that TSR wasn't able to do Forgotten Realms AND Dragonlance AND Mystara AND Greyhawk well so they prioritized, used the best stuff for FR, farmed DL and Mystara out to freelancers, and gave the leftovers to GH -- why not just kill the line? Because titles had already been announced and sales already solicited via Random House?

I guess you won't take my assurance to the contrary, but I am certain there was no such conspiracy. The people who took those projects genuinely wanted to do well with them and no disrespect or ill-intent was involved. From management's perspective, I think they felt that focusing on their core lines while still releasing occasional product in other lines was a way to keep all their eggs from being concentrated in one basket. But you are right, IMO, that better people gravitated to the lines that were getting more support.

[T. Foster]

So the idea was just that, since Greyhawk was a brand that TSR owned that had been successful in the past and might be successful again in the future, that it was better to keep it alive on a slow boil with a couple-three products a year, even if it so happened that most/all of those products weren't really very good, rather than let it disappear completely? I suppose that does make sense. It still seems all-too-convenient, though, that Greyhawk had such a poor track record, and I can't shake the image of someone, somewhere in the company taking spiteful glee in that.

[Zotster]

It's traditional for a new member of any forum to lurk for a while to get a sense of the group, and when he does start posting, to follow the forum's rules and post on topic. What you did, Mr. Breault, is known as trolling.

I assume the lost poster is Gene. In what ways am I his polar opposite? I assume you meant that as an insult, but the differences I see are that I can write a coherent English sentence, that I was actually there and don't just pretend to have been, and that I don't scatter ill-informed delusions of vast conspiracies throughout my posts.

Troll.

I disagree. I posted on the topic of disputing the (to me) illogical Zeb hating that was going on. I started a new topic so as not to yank the other topic off the OP's intended track. I think you need to develop a more realistic definition of "troll," as you don't seem to understand the term. You use it to tar anyone who disagrees with you, it seems.

BTW, my points about Gene were completely on-target and accurate. Responding with an ad hominem attack with nothing to back it up fits neatly into my definition of "troll," someone who posts only to enflame others.

[TRP]

It still seems all-too-convenient, though, that Greyhawk had such a poor track record, and I can't shake the image of someone, somewhere in the company taking spiteful glee in that.

, while wearing a muumuu.

[Zotster]

So the idea was just that, since Greyhawk was a brand that TSR owned that had been successful in the past and might be successful again in the future, that it was better to keep it alive on a slow boil with a couple-three products a year, even if it so happened that most/all of those products weren't really very good, rather than let it disappear completely? I suppose that does make sense. It still seems all-too-convenient, though, that Greyhawk had such a poor track record, and I can't shake the image of someone, somewhere in the company taking spiteful glee in that.

I can see that as a potential conclusion. But during my time there, the schedule was created by upper management while the actual line workers decided which projects they wanted to work on. So for it to have been deliberate, people who were detemined to tank GH would have had to grab those projects. Designers and editors put so much effort into creating and getting a project out the door, I just don't see that happening and I don't see management able to cause it to happen. (Well, OK, I can see people wanting to sink the Buck Rogers line, depending on how irritating Flint was being. )

[quatzl]

[TRP]

BTW, my points about Gene ...

You're just not going to let that go, are you?

[quatzl]

In Zotster's defense, it keeps being brought up even though a moderator requested that it be dropped. What baffles me is that folks around here defend Gene when he clearly behaved poorly.

[Flambeaux]

BTW, my points about Gene ...

You're just not going to let that go, are you?

Falconer is stirring the pot this go 'round.

[TRP]

In Zotster's defense, it keeps being brought up even though a moderator requested that it be dropped. What baffles me is that folks around here defend Gene when he clearly behaved poorly.

And yet another parting shot, eh?

I don't see it coming up anywhere except from Zot, and now you.

[TRP]

BTW, my points about Gene ...

You're just not going to let that go, are you?

Falconer is stirring the pot this go 'round.

Actually, he's not. I don't see Falconer saying a single unkind word about Gene, quite the contrary actually. Unlike others.

[quatzl]

Have you been reading this thread? Why don't you read it again, and pay attention this time.

It was not a parting shot, it was stating the obvious. When I take a shot, it will be very very clear.