What's up with the Zeb Cook hatred?

[JLowder]

Thanks for the enlightening post, James. It brings a bit of a smile to my face thinking of the TSR employees 'fightin' the man' to give more credit and respect to those that preceded them.

In the book department, we lobbied for two years just to get upper mgmt. to allow us to put the authors' names on the spines of novels. And there was a lot of that type of pro-creator lobbying going on in the company during my tenure. Of course, there was some push back from management, and certain people (like Gary) were always sore subjects with them.

From a certain business/PR perspective, it was in the company's best interest to minimize the individuals involved in the creation of the games and books--to foreground the brand. I don't agree with it, but I understand the logic: the more you promote the authors or designers, the more power they have in negotiating contracts or salaries. You create fans of the people rather than fans of the game or book line. Gary leaving the company had peeled away some D&D fans. Hickman & Weis had broken with TSR just before I started, and that had dealt a blow to the Dragonlance line. So getting the company to budge on the credit issue was no easy task. In the late 80s and very early 90s, at least, that was a fight several of us at the company kept fighting.

Finding out that Salvatore - the man behind what may be the #1 poster child of the differences between 1 and 2E, Drizzit - is actually very pro AD&D 1E. Its like when the creepy guy in Scooby Doo turns out not to be the bad guy, but the undercover agent.

Bob Salvatore is a vocal fan of first edition. There's an interview from 2004 here where he mentions DMing 1E. http://ps2.gamespy.com/playstation-2/fo ... 219p1.html I've chatted with him about D&D editions over the years. Like I said, he really wanted to write the essay praising 1E for Hobby Games: The 100 Best and was quite disappointed the assignment went to someone else.

As with Zeb, Bob's relationship to the various D&D editions is a lot more complex than can be revealed in a simple "friend of"/"foe of" tally.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

[francisca]

Welcome to the board, Jim. Thanks for your insights.

[Akrasia]

I'd like to thank both Mike and Jim for their fascinating insight into the inner workings of TSR.

I didn't really follow AD&D from 1985 onwards, and thus missed the entire 2e era. However, I remained interested in the Basic D&D line, and think that the best TSR gaming products during this era were for that line (the Gazetteers, B10, the RC, etc.). I find it ironic that designers at TSR considered this line undesirable, given the superior quality of the products (IMO).

Since this is a 1e AD&D site, I understand if discussing such products in this thread is considered inappropriate. If not, I'd be grateful into any insight either of you might have into the main designers responsible for Basic/Expert/RC D&D line, including the Gazetters, etc. (i.e., folks like Bruce Heard and Aaron Allston). Thanks!

EDIT: By 'insight' I mean any additional information that you might have on how the D&D line was perceived by TSR at the time, including how it was perceived by those who mainly worked on it (as far as I can tell, it seems that both Allston and Heard liked Mystara, etc.).

[Melan]

Welcome, Jim, and thanks - quite informative!

[Piper]

Actually, I wasn't lashing out, I was pointing out. Bit of a difference.

Seeing you get your panties in a twist because someone expressed the opinion that Elmore is a corporate whore was pretty funny. I've been enjoying the show.

And seeing you getting your panties in a twist and pretending not to is also pretty amusing. I can't say I've been enjoying the show, although I do find the study in hypocrisy interesting.

ETA: I don't want to stir up any more trouble on these boards. If you wish to continue to ridicule me, may I request you e-mail your insults to me at tmpiper at gmail period com? I know Matt "Mythmere" personally and don't want to do anything to infringe upon that friendship.

[James Maliszewski]

Random House was TSR's distributor, not publisher. They handled all TSR traffic in the book trade, which had become very important for the company for both game and fiction sales by the late 1980s. TSR would come up with a schedule and then the company would "pitch" the products to Random House (mgmt. and all the sales reps) at sales conferences. We'd get feedback from RH, and they had influence over the schedule, but did not have final say. Their influence was more subtle.

Random House's subtle influence over D&D is longstanding, going all the way back to the decision to produce AD&D as a series of hardcover books rather than a boxed set like OD&D. As it was explained to me (by whom, I can't recall at the moment), Random House felt a boxed game would be difficult to display on book store shelves and so the change in format was made to accommodate their suggestion. And the rest is history.

[Mythmere]

ETA: I don't want to stir up any more trouble on these boards. If you wish to continue to ridicule me, may I request you e-mail your insults to me at tmpiper at gmail period com? I know Matt "Mythmere" personally and don't want to do anything to infringe upon that friendship.

Don't worry Piper, you guys are currently well within bounds, and I don't take moderation-related stuff personally at all.

However, it would be nice for the two of you, as Piper is suggesting, not to fill the thread with posts that aren't germane to the topic. It affects the signal-to-noise ratio once it has repeated a couple of times through. That's just a request, not a moderator order.

[TRP]

Random House's subtle influence over D&D is longstanding, going all the way back to the decision to produce AD&D as a series of hardcover books rather than a boxed set like OD&D. As it was explained to me (by whom, I can't recall at the moment), Random House felt a boxed game would be difficult to display on book store shelves and so the change in format was made to accommodate their suggestion. And the rest is history.

Kudos then to Random House, because of what a great idea that was. Or, after it was decided to go with hardcovers, was it Gary's, or someone else at TSR, idea to go with the smyth sewn binding? 30 years later and those bindings are still tough as nails. That's not a good thing for a company that counts on planned obsolescence of it's product, but it's terrific for the customers!

[Grognard]

And seeing you getting your panties in a twist and pretending not to is also pretty amusing. I can't say I've been enjoying the show, although I do find the study in hypocrisy interesting.

I don't wear panties, so no twist at all on my end.

However, you have been very obviously angry in this thread, and I found it funny. Sue me.

However, lets keep the record straight. I have not insulted you in any way. I have not name-called, or "told you off," or insisted that anyone shut up (you know, like you did). I laughed at some comments that were made.

Attempting to make me seem angry when I'm not is nothing more than a defensive projection on your part to make yourself feel better. I have no need to email you with "insults" because that was not the object of my posts. I find this whole thing immensely humorous for many reasons that I have not articulated, and appreciate the entertainment value. Talking about games is supposed to be fun, and it that's how I take this entire discussion.

Nothing more and nothing less.

[SirAllen]

Edit to add: The women who were frequently in Larry's Snarkquest comic strip in Dragon were his wife and daughter, though I guess maybe that's where SirAllen's avatar came from.

It's from the interlude between Homlett and Nulb in T1-4. I hope it's Larry Elmore's daughter, and that I can meet her in a bar someday while a half orc tries to look down her shirt.

[Piper]

Nothing more and nothing less.

You can dress up your sarcasm and angry retorts with cute little smilies all you want, this does nothing to disguise your intent.

I'm projecting nothing, I merely refuse to buy into your deception.

[northrundicandus]

Mod Hat on:

Guys, I'm sick of this shit. The thread was getting back on track. No one else gives a rat's ass. Take it to PMs or somewhere else.

[JCBoney]

Welcome to the board, Jim. Your insight on things will be most welcome.

[Grognard]

You can dress up your sarcasm and angry retorts with cute little smilies all you want, this does nothing to disguise your intent.

I'm projecting nothing, I merely refuse to buy into your deception.

So I'm angry, sarcastic, hypocritical, and deceptive? Because you say so?

I made a post about how you were doing the same thing Semaj was doing. I didn't call you any names, and have not once in this thread.

And yet you have used foul language, expressed a desire for some to shut up, and used many direct personal insults. Looks like projection to me.

All because someone doesn't like Elmore's style of art, and isn't afraid to say it?

That really is funny.

[Grognard]

Mod Hat on:

Guys, I'm sick of this shit. The thread was getting back on track. No one else gives a rat's ass. Take it to PMs or somewhere else.

Sorry. I was writing my last post before you posted this. No sweat.