National heath care has arrived (Political)

You can talk about "almost" anything here.

Moderator: Falconer

Locked
User avatar
AxeMental
Uber-Grognard
Posts: 15107
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Florida

Post by AxeMental »

P&P, if you ever make it to Florida I'll have to take you shooting so you can at least see the fun your missing. :D You might not think its a right, but you'll definetly have a good time.


Stone Giant: "For the record all of the really great advances in the fight against MS have come from abroad and the most effective drugs have come from European and Israeli drug ccompanies. These companies have programs in place to help US citizens like my wife who is on medicare pay for her high copay (without medicare or any insurance her shots would cost $4000-$6000 a month)."

The big question is would these drugs have been developed by companies if they didn't have a profit motive at the time (and even if the answer is yes, what about all the other medications that have come down the pike in the last decade for things like cancer, high blood preasure etc. etc.)?

Even though these manufacturers aren't US based, they do sell to the US public (and probably charge more then they do in Europe and elseware). I don't know that as a fact, but I suspect its true. In any event they are businesses that operate in the free market system (take away the free market system and you might have problems).


As for teachers being good, hah! My daughter has 7 teachers at her highschool, one for each class (its public, but probably one of the best in Daytona) of those she says 3 teach, the rest don't (or can't or both, two are totaly dismal wastes). In any event, teachers make pretty good money (according to Salary.com the average is $52,113 (so about a half to a third of what the average doctor makes at around 150,000 (though some specialities like pediatrics are more like 120K) with the teacher having only 2 years (at most) education after college (and most don't have their masters, plus majoring in education is cake walk compared to pre-med (believe me I know). The average doctor spends 11-15 years of advanced training before they can even go into practise (and alot of that income they make goes to paying malpractise insurance as well as their student loans which can be very sizable.

In any event, when someone is dealing with your life (making sure they don't cut the wrong artery or nerve in surgery say, or prescribing the correct dose of medication, or properly diagnosing a disease etc.) you really want the very best (preferably someone that cares about people, and is very good at what they do, but the former is optional IMHO if you've got someone digging around in your body you want the guy least likely to fuck up (and often times deep feelers are the worst doctors because they get too emotionally involved (it'd be like doing surgery on your child) its a bad idea.
Last edited by AxeMental on Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
Thomas Jefferson in letter to Madison

Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
** Stone Giant

User avatar
JDJarvis
Grognard
Posts: 703
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:27 am
Contact:

Post by JDJarvis »

AxeMental wrote:, teachers make pretty good money (according to Salary.com the average is $52,113
Salary.com is way off. Teachers hit that pay rate at about 20 years experience.

http://teacherportal.com/salary

In Florida starting salary is $33k, average is $43k.

Average pay is about $41K
Last edited by JDJarvis on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
PapersAndPaychecks
Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: Location, Location.

Post by PapersAndPaychecks »

jgbrowning wrote:You are very correct in that England is not America. They don't have a party that wraps themselves in the flag as they fucking stab their Veterens in the back while all along blaming others for the wounds.
We do, actually. :) You'll be amused to know it's called the Conservative Party. You'll be familiar with it as the party Mrs Margaret Thatcher led.

It's been out of power for a dozen years now, after its economic policy jumped the shark and its popularity was shot following unpopular tax reform policies (e.g. the Poll Tax). But the Conservatives will win the next election here, not because they're popular but because Labour aren't.
OSRIC
Ten years old -- and still no kickstarter!

User avatar
PapersAndPaychecks
Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: Location, Location.

Post by PapersAndPaychecks »

blackprinceofmuncie wrote:No, but you did jump into the middle of a conversation that was all about whether it should be framed as a moral imperative, so....
So did you, and you don't think it should be framed as a moral imperative! Neither do I. However, I do think it's a human rights issue.
blackprinceofmuncie wrote:First, I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate representation of Matt's stance. It seemed to also encompass a more personal moral responsibility for the welfare of one's fellow man.
I'd probably better let Matt speak for himself.
OSRIC
Ten years old -- and still no kickstarter!

User avatar
AxeMental
Uber-Grognard
Posts: 15107
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Florida

Post by AxeMental »

JD: "Salary.com is way off. Teachers hit that pay rate at about 20 years experience.

http://teacherportal.com/salary

In Florida starting salary is $33k, average is $43k.

Average pay is about $41K"


Thats not way off, Florida has one of the worst pay scales for teachers in the USA (average that in with the NE that pay better and it probably is dead on). Anyhow, 20 years into a career in teaching would only put you at 42 or so. Thats about right (factor in they have 3 months off as well during summer, get tenour in no time :D , not a bad gig).
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
Thomas Jefferson in letter to Madison

Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
** Stone Giant

User avatar
PapersAndPaychecks
Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: Location, Location.

Post by PapersAndPaychecks »

Stonegiant wrote:As for people becoming Doctors under a national healthcare system, they would still do it because they wanted to. Look at the number of people who still become teachers even though it is not a high paying job.
Well, this is where we benefit from the high percentage of Indians here. It's part of the Indian culture that one child from every family is a businessman and another is a professional (such as a doctor, lawyer, etc.) and a significant proportion of our doctors are ethnically Indian.

We also benefit from the European employment market, where a healthcare professional like a nurse who trained in Poland or Hungary can triple or quadruple their salary by coming to Britain (and still be relatively low-paid by British standards).

A brand new doctor in the UK, working in a hospital in his or her first year, would expect to work about a 60-hour week in return for a salary of about £33,000 (which is US$48,500). In the second year, he or she would typically earn about £40,000 (which is US$58,500).

General practitioners (i.e. the doctor you build a relationship with, the one who's first point of call for your family) are typically self-employed and earn £80,000 to £120,000 (which is US$117,500 to US$175,000). Those who are directly employed by the NHS earn an absolute minimum salary of £52,462 (which is US$77,000).
OSRIC
Ten years old -- and still no kickstarter!

User avatar
PapersAndPaychecks
Admin
Posts: 8881
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:44 pm
Location: Location, Location.

Post by PapersAndPaychecks »

AxeMental wrote:P&P, if you ever make it to Florida I'll have to take you shooting so you can at least see the fun your missing. :D You might not think its a right, but you'll definetly have a good time.
I've been clay pigeon shooting a few times, with a 12-bore. It's quite good fun. :)

The gun clubs have to keep the 12-bores in special safes and notify the local chief constable, but they do exist.
OSRIC
Ten years old -- and still no kickstarter!

User avatar
AxeMental
Uber-Grognard
Posts: 15107
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Florida

Post by AxeMental »

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:
AxeMental wrote:P&P, if you ever make it to Florida I'll have to take you shooting so you can at least see the fun your missing. :D You might not think its a right, but you'll definetly have a good time.
I've been clay pigeon shooting a few times, with a 12-bore. It's quite good fun. :)

The gun clubs have to keep the 12-bores in special safes and notify the local chief constable, but they do exist.
Heh, and we keep our 12-bores in the closet in case we need to one day use them on our chief constable. :D
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
Thomas Jefferson in letter to Madison

Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
** Stone Giant

User avatar
JDJarvis
Grognard
Posts: 703
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:27 am
Contact:

Post by JDJarvis »

AxeMental wrote:J
Thats not way off, Florida has one of the worst pay scales for teachers in the USA (average that in with the NE that pay better and it probably is dead on). Anyhow, 20 years into a career in teaching would only put you at 42 or so. Thats about right (factor in they have 3 months off as well during summer, get tenour in no time :D , not a bad gig).
Some New England schools do pay more dollars, to some folks in some areas. It isn't a path to riches. Here in New Hampshire starting pay is more like $28K . What those salaries sites don't tell folks about is the couple years you have to work as a substitute teacher or an assistant and earn garbage or the low pay rates some folks get that are "educational workers" but not "teachers" and that $28K looks good to in comparison.

I've know plenty of teachers that work as lifeguards, bar-tenders and traffic cops during the summer break so they can make ends meet it isn't a vacation wonderland for many of them.

User avatar
Flambeaux
Uber-Grognard
Posts: 4586
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:52 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Post by Flambeaux »

JDJarvis wrote:I've know plenty of teachers that work as lifeguards, bar-tenders and traffic cops during the summer break so they can make ends meet it isn't a vacation wonderland for many of them.
I know tenured professors who do that.

But I'm a homeschooler, so I have nothing constructive to add to the Teacher Salary discussion aside from the above observation.

The Icemaiden
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:19 pm
Location: Glasgow - Bonny Scotland

Post by The Icemaiden »

AxeMental wrote:And yeah, I personally think socializing medicine in the USA would decrease the quality of care like it does in England (want to go to the doctor cause you got a cold, no problem come right in, want to get the operation for cancer, or that expensive test done, or go on that expensive new drug) better fly to the USA if you want immediate care, otherwise get in line.

Why fly to the USA? We have the Beatson in Glasgow which is an international centre of excellence in the treatment of cancers and associated research and development. Great Ormonde Street in London is an international centre of excellence in the field of pediatrics.... there are many more.

As P&P stated, the majority of those who go abroad for treatment are going for either Cosmetic Surgery...usually boob jobs :roll: or for treatment that has not been proven to be effective.

One of the great things about the UK system is... lets say P&P, a resident of England comes up to Scotland for a weekend. During that weekend his appendix goes. He will be rushed to the nearest hospital and given all the medical care he requires for nothing. When he returns home to England he will continue to recieve any follow-up care at his local hospital/clinic/GP office... again for nothing. Likewise if the tables were turned and I had a medical emergency in England. There is no quibbling over us being from different countries or healthcare "regions" etc it all comes under the one UK NHS.

If we so wish we can have private healthcare. Having private healthcare will not bar us from using the NHS (afterall we pay into it) but the choice is there all the same. There was a Private hospital in Glasgow that actually had to close because no-one used it.
You'll have to get up very early in the morning to catch me out....you may even have to stay up all night!

User avatar
Stonegiant
Uber-Grognard
Posts: 3647
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:43 pm
Location: Wilmington, NC
Contact:

Post by Stonegiant »

JDJarvis wrote:
AxeMental wrote:, teachers make pretty good money (according to Salary.com the average is $52,113
Salary.com is way off. Teachers hit that pay rate at about 20 years experience.

http://teacherportal.com/salary

In Florida starting salary is $33k, average is $43k.

Average pay is about $41K
My mother has been a teacher for almost 30 years and makes $50K, currently with the expected budget cuts they are looking at taking pay cuts.
I want to hear what you did in the dungeon, not the voting booth. Politics and rules minutia both bore me in my opinion.

The Stonegiant's Cave- Old school hand drawn maps and illustrations. I am taking commissions. Check me out on-
Blogger: https://thestonegiantscave.blogspot.com/
Deviant Art: https://www.deviantart.com/stonegiant81
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Thestonegiantscave
Also you can email me at: stonegiant81@gmail.com

User avatar
quatzl
Veteran Member
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 11:38 am
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Post by quatzl »

Directed to our UK friends, IceMaiden, P&P, ...

I am just curious, and don't mean to derail the discussion (how would we tell? :) ). I hope to be visiting the UK sometime this year. How does your healthcare treat foreigners, legal and illegal?

For example, I will be traveling to Scotland, and if I need emergency care. Will I be billed? or is it forgiven under the current system?

Thanks.

User avatar
AxeMental
Uber-Grognard
Posts: 15107
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Florida

Post by AxeMental »

Hey Alg, I remember reading an article about Canadian's coming down to Florida for hip replacements and other medical procedures (we get a ton of French Canadians around here) and the Fl hospitals raking it in. Couldn't find it but here is another covering similar ground: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1453063 its
The article mentions there is serious concern from the Canadian govt. over this trend (Canadians going to the USA for elective surgery to avoid waiting on the governments tab).
And this seems to confirm this concern (the fact that they keep talking about waiting periods must indicate a problem).
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1453063

You have to remember, our population dwarfs your own, and generally its much less healthy (with a much larger population of illegal immigrants and higher levels of poverty). Our govt. also tends to be far more corrupt and waistful (check out Obama's 1000 page 800 billion dollar bail out plan dropped off 2 days before its vote with no one having the time to read it and no public disclosure). If we go to your system we'd see socialized medicine manipulated and corrupted, we'd have much worse waiting periods then anything you experiance (and our costs would skyrocket, as savings would be outpaced by new expenses....EXACTLY as we have experianced when ever HMOs are introduced). I don't know about Joe B or anyone else, but Personally, if I get cancer, I want fast turn around time with the best care available in the world.

Ice Maiden: "a resident of England comes up to Scotland for a weekend. During that weekend his appendix goes. He will be rushed to the nearest hospital and given all the medical care he requires for nothing. When he returns home to England he will continue to recieve any follow-up care at his local hospital/clinic/GP office... again for nothing."

Actually its not free (as you mention), he pays for it (just not at the moment he uses it).

Like I said, I've only read and watched stories about people coming from Europe, Canada and the rest of the world for medical care (usually because of the wait due to rationing, but also because of the quality of our doctors and facilities).
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
Thomas Jefferson in letter to Madison

Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
** Stone Giant

User avatar
AxeMental
Uber-Grognard
Posts: 15107
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Florida

Post by AxeMental »

Hey P&P, if you wanted to say get your hip joint replaced in the USA would your national insurance flip the bill (or part of it)? I noticed in that article I pulled for Alg that the Canadians do this for their people opting to go to the USA for treatment (though they seem like there going to be putting that to an end soon).
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
Thomas Jefferson in letter to Madison

Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
** Stone Giant

Locked