Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Nikosandros wrote:Is is already out? It's still listed as a pre-order everywhere that I've checked.

Oh, and this is my first post here... so hello everyone!

Copies were sold at GenCon and most/all people who pre-ordered it have received their copies, but AFAIK it hasn't yet made it into standard retail distribution yet.

And welcome to the site. Always nice to see familiar names stopping by

Ghul wrote:. . . I assure you I had complete use of Gary's original extant notes, including those yellowed-with-age scribblings from the early 70's. . . .

Allow me to be the one to ask, then -- do you still have them?

(I'm only half kidding when I add, "and can I touch them?" heh heh heh. . . .)

Ghul wrote:I can't say too much about the design of this product, but I assure you I had complete use of Gary's original extant notes, including those yellowed-with-age scribblings from the early 70's

Jeff, were you given access to the original maps from the early 70s when working on this project? I know the Castle went through a number of revamps over the years and maps were drawn and redrawn several times per Gary's own recountings. Did Gary give you the whole bundle and leave you to figure it out or did he create a synthesized version for you to use?

T. Foster wrote:Hi Jeff,

Glad to see you checking in here. I hope you realize that nothing we (or at least I -- can't speak for everybody else ) are saying here should be taken as a diss of your and Gary's accomplishment with this set (and the set(s) still to come). It may not be exactly what some of us wanted, and we may lament that, but it's still a very big deal. And I assure you that every bit of "early 70s essence" you can manage to distill into these late 00s products will be very greatly appreciated, at least by me

Trent,

No worries whatsoever, my friend. I enjoy coming to K&KA to read the valuable insights of my fellow gamers, and to gather ideas for my own home game. I also enjoy the highly critical nature of the site, as many of the gathered gamers here are seasoned veterans of the dinner table with valid points and concerns.

When I was a younger man, in my early 20's, I got involved with a fiction writing group. I learned from them a valuable lesson: it's not the writer that should be criticized; rather, it is the work. Likewise, the writer should suck it up and realize that it is not he who is the subject of criticism, but rather his work. So, if my peer group of gamers here at K&KA have issues with the presentation and execution of something I was involved with, I would never feel insulted or dissed in any way; on the contrary, I'm flattered. I want to hear your concerns and opinions, and I respect them a great deal.

Best,
Jeff T.

Algolei wrote:

Ghul wrote:. . . I assure you I had complete use of Gary's original extant notes, including those yellowed-with-age scribblings from the early 70's. . . .

Allow me to be the one to ask, then -- do you still have them?

(I'm only half kidding when I add, "and can I touch them?" heh heh heh. . . .)

No, not the original notes. Those did not leave Gary's sacred binder, which Deogolf knows more intimately than I do. I was working from photocopies of his original notes. I will likewise address the maps question when I answer BP's post below, as it's a bit more complicated. Thanks for the interest.

Best,
Jeff T.

Ghul wrote:No, not the original notes. Those did not leave Gary's sacred binder, which Deogolf knows more intimately than I do. I was working from photocopies of his original notes.

There are copies of Gary's notes?!

blackprinceofmuncie wrote:

Ghul wrote:I can't say too much about the design of this product, but I assure you I had complete use of Gary's original extant notes, including those yellowed-with-age scribblings from the early 70's

Jeff, were you given access to the original maps from the early 70s when working on this project? I know the Castle went through a number of revamps over the years and maps were drawn and redrawn several times per Gary's own recountings. Did Gary give you the whole bundle and leave you to figure it out or did he create a synthesized version for you to use?

Hello BP,

Thanks for the question, mate. There was a process in place from before I was handed the reigns to this project from the Trolls and Gary. Gary was very protective of his IP, and who could blame him?

This is what was done, regarding the dungeon maps: There were to be no photocopies floating about. Davis Chenault was given permission to draw out the maps, using Gary's originals as his basis. He then inserted the encounter #s to match those as indicated on Gary's extant notes. I was then supplied with Gary's notes and the maps as drawn by Davis which mirrored the originals. Gary then supplied me with piles of notes and outlines as to how to stock the whole of the place, but he indeed provided me ample latitude in its development. He also had changed the points of ingress/egress many times over the years and encouraged me to add to these or subtract from these as I chose, because that was the mutable nature and spirit of the work. Zany Zagyg, indeed. The 08' release is not as extensive as Gary had at one point expanded it; neither is it as small as it was at its smallest. The Mouths of Madness, a series of caves that ensconce the Level 1 dungeon ("The Storerooms") are somewhat of a recent innovation in that Gary had not drawn them, but indeed had several surrounding caves in the old incarnations. These I drew under Gary's watchful eye.

Okay, I'm digressing a bit. I apologize. Let me be more clear, BP. No, I did not have Gary's original maps as I developed this work, but I did have hand-drawn replicas. Also, allow me to correct something you also allude to: Gary did not "draw and redraw" the maps. He certainly stocked and restocked the dungeons and altered its inhabitants, but the maps are the same that he drew in the early 70's. In some cases the maps have been truncated, but never redrawn. What do I mean by truncated? Basically, this: at some levels Gary would have a central map from which he would later add a north, south, east, and west map. But if Gary was going to run a bit of OD&D at a con, he might only bring the original central portion. He did this sort of thing a lot, which often makes me smile when folks cry out, "I want the real and original Castle Greyhawk!" To which Gary replied, and which I am able to concur with: "Which one?"

Greyhawk has indeed been through many incarnations and permutations. I've been fortunate enough to glimpse its earliest incarnation and the notes associated with it, enjoying the privilege to cobble together a publishable adventure under Gary's direct supervision. I can only hope that the spirit of the original has been captured by this kid from New Hampshire. I was a constant pest to Gary, asking him this or that throughout the process, up to several times per day. Sometimes he'd get downright grumpy with me; other times he'd laugh or poke fun at me. At the end of the day, I feel it was well worth it.

Finally, I want to mention this: I understand the desire of some folks to see Gary's original maps and his original notes. That's not how Gary chose to roll with this project, and I never questioned his decision.

Best,
Jeff T.

Ghul wrote:Gary did not "draw and redraw" the maps. He certainly stocked and restocked the dungeons and altered its inhabitants, but the maps are the same that he drew in the early 70's. In some cases the maps have been truncated, but never redrawn. What do I mean by truncated? Basically, this: at some levels Gary would have a central map from which he would later add a north, south, east, and west map

Yes, this is what I was alluding to when I wrote "redrawn". I should have said "expanded" instead.

Thanks for outlining the process for creating the maps. I'd never heard that before. Davis is a lucky man to have been able to see the original Castle GH maps all together like that.

T. Foster wrote: Copies were sold at GenCon and most/all people who pre-ordered it have received their copies, but AFAIK it hasn't yet made it into standard retail distribution yet.

Ah, OK. I think it's nice to reward people that pre-ordered.

T. Foster wrote:And welcome to the site. Always nice to see familiar names stopping by

Thank you. I see quite a few familiar names around here...

Ghul wrote: Finally, I want to mention this: I understand the desire of some folks to see Gary's original maps and his original notes. That's not how Gary chose to roll with this project, and I never questioned his decision.

Yes, there was a somewhat heated discussion about this topic on DF some time ago... Gary himself was always extremely clear about this point.

BTW, thanks for sharing this "designers notes" with us.