Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I'm not necessarily pro-American in the sense that no matter what we do, it must be right. I am pro-Constitution, and I also am pro-nationalism in the sense that the USA has a right to, and should, look out for the benefits of US citizens first and foremost. A country is the organization, like a local homeowners' association, that looks out for the best interests of the people it protects and comprises. If it doesn't do that, those people should certainly organize a new government to undertake that task. It's what we did in 1776 and 1790.

Our country has fallen a long way since 1776, I believe, and if this republic is to endure, there are several trends that need to be reversed. Some of these trends come from our Democratic party, and some from our Republican party. Much as we might like to think so, the "other" political party isn't to blame, and the problems won't all go away as sonn as "my" party gets into power. The political parties themselves shoulder only part of the blame - I think our society has become decadent.

The republican party is busily engaged right now in dismantling the tripartite system of separation of powers. That's not all republicans, but it's the group in power right now, the Bush supporters. The Texas republican party, for one, has noticed this and begun to make a bit of noise. But it's not nearly enough - we are careening blindly toward an imperial presidency where line item vetos gut the power of the legislature, where secret funds are controlled by a president to end-run the legislature, where "police actions" aren't considered wars that the legislature can end, and where the military substitutes for operations that the congress can control (secret prisons and military prisons, for example). And on the judiciary side? Proposed limitations on jurisdiction, proposed impeachment of federal judges for making the wrong "political" rulings.

A country in debt to its eyeballs because of unemployment and tax cheaters. It's easy to blame the problem on entitlement programs, and the administration of these is a nightmare. But we also have eleven million illegal aliens in the country taking up the entire lower tier of our economy and forcing the wage scale upward. The third world is exporting poverty into the USA faster than a free market can export the first world outward. Free markets are great when they are properly managed, but they don't provide stability in any given economy and we can't ignore that there are areas where markets don't function efficiently. If we can't address the illegal alien problem, we are breeding an underclass that will corrode our economy. Yet somehow, we have a huge number of people who believe that the USA owes illegal aliens the same considerations as US citizens. We owe them basic human rights as a civilized nation -- but they aren't citizens.

And outside the country we seem to think that there is no middle ground between treating foreigners as either US citizens to be coddled or animals to be brutalized. We are conducting our open-air war as if our solders were policemen in a local neighborhood dealing with rosy-cheeked juvenile delinquents and our secret war as if we were Saddam Hussein himself. We're engaged in an absolute clus****uck of a war abroad, with very few people seeing the middle ground of "we screwed up, but we have to fix it or have a massive problem." Everyone either insists that we didn't screw up by going to war, or insists that we must leave immediately.

We Americans are lying to ourselves. The constitution doesn't make us invulnerable or perfect; we're charged, personally, every one of us, to guard a free nation and preserve it free for our children. Yet we're vomiting our civil rights onto the altar of empire.

While I'm all in favor of the 2nd amendment (that's the right to bear arms), it does nothing to beat our chests about how tough we'd be if we were invaded or if someone tried to establish hereditary rule here.

Hereditary rule: when's the last time the president wasn't named "Clinton" or "Bush?"

Defense against invasion: 11 million illegal immigrants.

We HAVE been invaded, and hereditary rule IS here in the same form it began in the Roman republic, complete with secret police. Anyone who can't be an American patriot and yet still see that we are in a terrible state of peril to ourselves (and to the world at large if we implode); that person is part of the problem.

NICE! now i know why in the cycling forum where i'm mod (with more than 1000 uswers) religious or political topics are simply not allowed...


of course that's not meant as an answer to myths last post, but as a statement about the whole thread.

We usually close them when they get too heated, or when they degenerate to just couple of people sniping at each other.

Thats the beauty of this place. No one takes this stuff personally. I can disagree with someone politcally, but that doesn't have any bearing on my friendship or respect for them. I think that has to do with the maturity of the posters attracted to this locality.

that's true, but talking about religion or politics i find out things about people i "like" (if you can "like" someone on the internet) that i rather wouldn't like to know.

Glgnfz wrote:that's true, but talking about religion or politics i find out things about people i "like" (if you can "like" someone on the internet) that i rather wouldn't like to know.

Well ... I can't deny that.

But a certain degree of tolerance for political (not religious) discussion is kind of a tradition here. It's just part of the individual culture of this particular board.

What amazes me is that oftimes boards ban political and religious discussion, but not TMI details about members' personal lives (like: "my GF and I just broke up, now I need to look at Asian pr0n to make myself feel better").

If I may digress a bit, one of the first times I posted at ENWorld was in response to a query about the calculation of the date of Easter. It was actually a somewhat interesting discussion. But then someone came and crapped on the thread with a "religion is teh sux!!" (not an actual quote) response. This was in a thread that was only peripherally about religion; it was more cultural-historical than anything else (is calling the calendar "Gregorian" a religious statement? I think not). I don't think I posted at ENWorld for a year after that, even though the mods locked it down and cleaned it up pretty quick.

That is why non-religious boards ban religious discussions.

I've been following this thread for the last day and find it fascinating and pretty damn well behaved.

Here, here to what Myth wrote. Well stated, Cicero.

Ska wrote:P&P--the crime rate in England continues to skyrocket since anti-gun legislation continued it's march in the socialist country of Engalnd. Home invasions continue and a few months back crime was so rampant in London's subways that the subway workers went on strike as they feared going to work.

Uh-oh, I pushed the Ska button!

Socialist, banning guns, same thing, right?

SemajTheSilent wrote:

I mean, your own supreme court's called the government out on Gitmo, and the American populace are sitting on their asses wringing their hands and saying "How terrible, but what can we do?"

Wrong. We howled to our Senators and Congressmen. We politically campaigned against such behavior from our own government, and people were raising hell about Gitmo long before the USSC got into the act. Believe me...unless something really funky happens...the November elections will be a political bloodbath for the Republicans. Their acquiesence to Bush's policy will come back to haunt them big time.

Well, here you're talking about battling government policy using the democratic mechanism -- very different to battling governments using your handguns. I'm not saying Americans are undemocratic, just they don't really have a reputation for being prepared to fight.

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:

SemajTheSilent wrote:

I mean, your own supreme court's called the government out on Gitmo, and the American populace are sitting on their asses wringing their hands and saying "How terrible, but what can we do?"

Wrong. We howled to our Senators and Congressmen. We politically campaigned against such behavior from our own government, and people were raising hell about Gitmo long before the USSC got into the act. Believe me...unless something really funky happens...the November elections will be a political bloodbath for the Republicans. Their acquiesence to Bush's policy will come back to haunt them big time.

Well, here you're talking about battling government policy using the democratic mechanism -- very different to battling governments using your handguns. I'm not saying Americans are undemocratic, just they don't really have a reputation for being prepared to fight.

But they're not mutually exclusive. We choose to go the route of political expression first because we don't want bloodshed on the streets. Who in their right mind does?

Do not take that as indicative of an unwillingness to overthrow by force of arms should it become necessary. I'll let you in on a little secret that partially backs up your claim: in the eyes of most Americans, there's a big difference between dragging some foreign nationals to Gitmo to face a military tribunal and dragging American citizens into internment camps to face military trbunal. Remember what I said above about "what happens to someone else is one thing...what happens to me is another?"

Most people don't like the Gitmo situation, but we're trusting the demoratic process to set things right. That's a completely different situation from deliberate and open infringement of civil liberties against American citizens.

Here's more along the lines of what I'm talking about: http://www.ybw.com/ibinews/newsdesk/200 ... inews.html

It's already an open secret here in Arkansas...a state that does a lot of fishing and boating on open waters...that the first game warden who attempts to enforce this won't escape unscathed. I would like to add that I'm not directly making threats...merely repeating what appears to be the sentiment among a lot of Arkansans.

SemajTheSilent wrote:Here's more along the lines of what I'm talking about: http://www.ybw.com/ibinews/newsdesk/200 ... inews.html

It's already an open secret here in Arkansas...a state that does a lot of fishing and boating on open waters...that the first game warden who attempts to enforce this won't escape unscathed. I would like to add that I'm not directly making threats...merely repeating what appears to be the sentiment among a lot of Arkansans.

You stick to the democratic process when you want to support the right to trial by jury, but you'll call an Islamic-extremist style fatwah against someone who enforces the anti-trespassing laws to stop you fishing?

Mythmere wrote:But a certain degree of tolerance for political (not religious) discussion is kind of a tradition here. It's just part of the individual culture of this particular board.

Oh yes. Religious discussion here would not be a good thing.

SemajTheSilent wrote:I'll let you in on a little secret that partially backs up your claim: in the eyes of most Americans, there's a big difference between dragging some foreign nationals to Gitmo to face a military tribunal and dragging American citizens into internment camps to face military trbunal. Remember what I said above about "what happens to someone else is one thing...what happens to me is another?"

Yes, there was a gigantic hue and cry when Japanese-Americans were interred in concentration camps during WWII.

All that the government would have to do would be to demonize a certain segment of the American population ("the Yellow Menace"), and most Americans would probably fall into lockstep.

What do you think would happen if Arab-Americans (and Iranian-Americans, etc.), particularly Muslims, were rounded up and interred in concentration camps?

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:

SemajTheSilent wrote:Here's more along the lines of what I'm talking about: http://www.ybw.com/ibinews/newsdesk/200 ... inews.html

It's already an open secret here in Arkansas...a state that does a lot of fishing and boating on open waters...that the first game warden who attempts to enforce this won't escape unscathed. I would like to add that I'm not directly making threats...merely repeating what appears to be the sentiment among a lot of Arkansans.

You stick to the democratic process when you want to support the right to trial by jury, but you'll call an Islamic-extremist style fatwah against someone who enforces the anti-trespassing laws to stop you fishing?

And now you understand.