Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I was trying to find out information on Empyrea, and I think this may be a super kickass setting after all. I am not sure where you can fit the various inns and taverns that patrons make, but can you imagine a cool Blackmoory dungeon under that castle.

RandomEncounter wrote:I wonder if these people copyrighted the name Empyrea...

https://www.wizard101.com
http://the-spiral-kingsisle.wikia.com/wiki/Empyrea

I know, wizardawn, I know.

It's apparently known for sky squid inhabitants so you may be right, sounds way more kick-ass than the other option. I'd dig that blackmoor dungeon on a castle in the air.

...or is it Empyrea from Dragon Quest VIII?

I think another thing that really dragged down this KS is poor structure of its rewards tiers. The KS market has pretty soundly rejected the various tiers as many have zero backers.

At this point there's 615 backers

42 of them (~7%) are either car wreck rubberneckers, are willing to tip a buck to get their names on a website, or possibly expect to have money in the fulfillment phase they won't have before the KS close.

8 people (~1%) don't care about the product (at least not right now) but are willing to get a $5 Loxely gift card, access to empyrea humble bumbles, and insider info

4 people (>1%) want the above plus telling Frank about their character

6 people (~1%) want the above plus a bigger Loxely gift card

47 people (~7.5%) are consumers not caring about hard copy but want the main product in PDF

388 people (~63%) are your traditional buyer wanting an industry standard box set

another 101 (~16.5%) people want the industry standard, and to play it online (either with their character as a written-in leader, or not)

This adds up to ~97% of his total backers. I don't consider that an unusual distribution except that for this to fund at $250K at these pledge levels and below, means the minimum number of supporters F expected would have been between 3,350 and 4,000 people. This lines up with the box set having a "limited" number of openings at 3,335 (which is ($250,125)

To put it into perspective, Monte Cook's KS currently with $450K has less than 2,500 backers.

So I think it's safe to say that F presumed the deep pocket support of collectors would be there for him in the type of money that folds, instead of clinks.

But outside of less than a dozen people who want either signed darlene maps and/or free worldwide shipping if they live in a remote area of the planet ($400 level) or F and D to sign everything for a total of a cool $1K, he only has 1 big fish donor (and I'm not convinced it's really a legitimate donor as opposed to an insider wanting to give the project a big money boost on its first day).

The $750/$2K/$4K/7.5K tiers have no one. Nada. Zilch. Frank couldn't figure out how to put together premium tiers that well-off RPG players/collectors want to buy, and he's intimately associated with them for a decade or more.

Frank is supposed to be an RPG business savant but can't see (or apparently be led to see) that scarcity only drives behavior if it is perceived as real. If Levi's says there's only 1 billion pairs of 501s on the planet, so you better act fast (or risk missing out!) then there's no scarcity. This is slimpyrea currently.

He'd have been better off if he'd said there were only 100 box sets available at $75 (or better yet, $55) and then keep raising the price of the box set $5 every time he has to open a new "tier" because the previous 100 filled.

As of right now, there is literally NO REASON to back this KS today. All the tiers are empty rooms; there's no possible upside of stretch goals that could increase your value if others join; and psychologically no one wants to associate themselves with a loser. A KS that the crowd rejects is a loser.

Anyone who works with Frank Mentzer in a professional capacity other than payment up front for a spec'd work deserves exactly what they get. Up until now all we've had is Frank's self-fellatio as to his talents and a very hazy view of the implosion of Eldritch Enterprises. But this is *all Frank*, and what you get when he's allowed to do it his way. Anyone he burns in the future by not being able to deliver on their promises can't say "how was I supposed to know".

Wizardawn wrote:...or is it Empyrea from Dragon Quest VIII?

LOL

EOTB wrote:

Wizardawn wrote:...or is it Empyrea from Dragon Quest VIII?

LOL

LOOOOL

Eotb very on point about the tiers. Huge scaling price with almost no additional benefit.

I tried looking up forum traffic but it is pretty sparse on information. Most of them have people that are excited but don't pose any further questions on it. I find it odd that DF doesn't talk about it. Is Empyrea banned at DF from even having a discussion? Its not like Mesner will be resurrected to cast Mesner's Flaming Troll.

I'm assuming if such a thread did pop up, either it would be whisked away by Steve, or maybe a warning would go along with it. Anyway, if most of them are like me, they probably figure such a thread would be toxic without bringing much benefit. That's why I'm participating on *this* thread.

Yeah, I think on DF things are still pretty raw. Frank's fans don't want to open a thread to see people talk badly about this, and I don't think Steve's interested in a thread that's critical from the get-go.

Can't blame him there; I'd want to steer DF clear of any FM drama given recent history if I were in his chair.

I think EOTB is spot on with his analysis.

I can tell you that members are free to open a thread about this at Dragonsfoot, but nobody has done so to date. Normal rules of civility would be expected to be adhered to, of course. Whether it would be good for the website is another question. As observed above, the potential for facilitating acrimony and generating problems is likely quite high. Personally, I would not particularly want to have to deal with the drama. One interesting result of all this is that the Dragonsfoot chat rooms appear to have emptied out, with members quietly setting up an alternative venue. Individuals have been using private chats at Dragonsfoot for a while in hopes of avoiding moderation, but this Mentzer drama seems to have provided the excuse to exit altogether. The obvious wrongdoing has made it impossible to speak openly in defence of the Prince, but there was definitely an attempt to characterise things as "Dragonsfoot versus Mentzer, whose side are you on?" The usual suspects were behind this colouring of events in pursuit of their own agendas.

Kalex the Omen wrote:One of Alyssa Faden's Dungeon Maps (not blue and white though).

Link

Those are nice maps. I really like the multi-level aspect of the dungeon map. However, pretty maps with lame content are no more fun than ugly maps with lame content. Based on what I've seen of the Empyrea content so far, Frank doesn't seem focused on making cool, challenging dungeons. If that's not the case, if there are cool dungeon environments and adventure locales within Frank's 40 years of campaign notes it would be a good idea to put up some of that content as teasers on the KS page. There are still weeks left in the funding period, plenty of time to drive up the enthusiasm from its currently dismal levels.

Wizardawn wrote:LOL! They are cashing in on "Stranger Things" without cashing in on "Stranger Things". <snip> The artwork by itself is fine, but put together in a book and it throws your eyes off...going from one style to the next.

Hey, Frank. If you are lurking here, this is something you can take note of. The guys who are making this game stated this delightful piece of information:

"Dark Places & Demogorgons has been fully written, designed, laid out and play tested."

I have no idea what Stranger Things are, but I had noticed that blurb you've diligently pointed out.

That is one of the many things that struck me as being 100x more desirable in a KS than what was presented by a "40 year veteran".

As for the "80's" art, I found it anachronistic at best. The 80's styles are subsumed into later styles, post2010 styles noticeably to me.

ghendar wrote:I really wanted to like this. I have very fond memories of Frank's BECM work but this setting just doesn't offer enough utility to make it worth my while. Something like the Wilderlands? Yes! Empyrea? not so much. All the other ancillary critical discussion and various revelations (I wasn't aware of the DF PM thing) also leaves an ever increasingly bad taste in my mouth.

This is totally understandable. FM is supposed to be a professional that produces quality work, and I haven't seen anything of this caliber yet. I'm not a huge fan of BECMI, but I have used the RC (BECMI edited to fit one hardbound book by Aaron Allston) to run PBEM D&D games.

ghendar wrote:

bobjester wrote:
That's just it, I don't want to get banned from the site for invading someone else's 'safe space'. Its a great site, but my opinions are not widely recognized as 'polite' over there, so I have to bite my tongue. A lot.

I'm the same way over there. It's sometimes a little too polite for my tastes. But hey, different board different rules right?

Definitely. There are good folks over there that I don't want to alienate, and I'm sure more than one lurk here, so that point is probably moot.

RandomEncounter wrote:I just glanced at the pizza and Mensers is more active there than his own Kickstarter. And I have to say reading it does not engender any additional faith in the quality of the setting. It's like watching some random person explaining their homegrown setting and house rules who has no concept of professional-grade publication. Very amateur.

I'm even more amateur, but I'm not seeking a quarter of a million dollars either.

The core premise is that all sentient specie modify their environment to some extent, but humans do it hastily. They lack foresight and context. They focus on what they want and destroy everything that gets in their way. The ancient demi-human races, by contrast, are less egoistic. They know how to create a win-win-win situation for themselves, other life forms, and the planet itself. The planet told them how (through druids). They've been doing this for 5,000 years; the humans (at 300+) are still learning, still adapting.

Intelligent tech remains in balance with the environment. Stupid Tech is a disease arising from pride (hubris) and arrogance.
But of course there's tech and there's Tech. The guideline is simple: If it helps you, good. If it replaces you, bad.

I think this falls under "common elven and human stereotypes". Nothing interesting or unique (to me) anywhere I look.

This all seems very meta to me, too meta even for the designer of the campaign setting, and I readily admit how much of an amateur I am.

The first thing that turns me off this campaign is the use of 'tech' as if every NPC & PC are fully aware of it. Its a top-down design that stays on the top, and never intends to get down to the bottom tiers for a fully realized campaign; all that supposition and wonder, especially wonder is nowhere to be found. What is the attraction of a campaign setting if there is nothing to explore, because everyone already knows ahead of time 'what happens when we die'?

Tech as a bad thing was never a factor in my campaigns because it always assumed a Feudal & Medieval society, not a Capitalist/Industrial Age society with heavy socialist/communist or even sympathetic fascist societal tones.

EOTB wrote:

The planet told them how (through druids). They've been doing this for 5,000 years; the humans (at 300+) are still learning, still adapting.

This is interesting, because at cons I've read an earlier draft of empyrea, and in it the demihumans were former humans (who themselves were former earth humans) that changed after exposure to magical energies not present in Earth's solar system while exploring the galaxy.

So demis were a really recent fork from regular humanity that didn't have multi-thousand years of independent development/culture/etc.

He must have changed it to further hammer home his preferred object lesson.

This is a fundamental change to Oerth and any campaign set there - whether in Emperyr, or in the Flanaess, if this is the same planet that Emperya is really set. However, I have doubts that Gary ever approved of this setting being even remotely associated with WoG, even after his ouster from TSR.

francisca wrote:Seriously, grow the fuck up. No wonder RPG players get portrayed as social misfits. No well adjusted, fully formed adult would stoop to this level of pettiness and fuckheadedness.

Unless we were doing it for internet yuks or catharsis, but it should go without saying that we wouldn't pay for an adult professional to stoop to that level.

francisca wrote:Well, I think one thing that this whole mess has confirmed for me: No matter your religion, philosophy, or politics, Fantasy RPGs are shit way to make statements about the real world.

I get about 100% too much of real-world problems in the real fucking world, for fucks sake.

I just want to play a character who goes to exotic locales, meets interesting and exotic creates, then kills them and takes their stuff. Oh, and I want my character to set some shit on fire once in a while, too.

The last couple posts brought to you by:
The Letters: F, U, C, K
and
The number 250,000

Absolutely!

Humanocentrism. It's at the heart of 1e of course. The hobby was new, and with no experience, it was as hard to play an elf as a 3-legged alien. Gary wanted you to identify with characters; odd was fine, weird was hard.

Heh.

bobjester wrote:

Wizardawn wrote:"Alyssa Faden"? Never heard of her. Did she make the "big names" list and I am just out of touch with the current market? Her maps are nice. Maybe she should drop the "Faden" and just go by Alyssa.

You might just be a smidge out of touch. ...or its because she mainly blogs to the OSR crowd, she might be on faceborg too.

But I've heard of her, and her maps are very good.

Yep, she is good. That's why she is currently working on my Known World map for BLUEHOLME™. She's mostly on Facebook now so I don't know if her maps there are linkable, but I'll try:



Here's an old one from her Deviantart page: