Knights & Knaves Alehouse

bobjester wrote:
That's just it, I don't want to get banned from the site for invading someone else's 'safe space'. Its a great site, but my opinions are not widely recognized as 'polite' over there, so I have to bite my tongue. A lot.

I'm the same way over there. It's sometimes a little too polite for my tastes. But hey, different board different rules right?

ExTSR wrote:It is the debut of an all-new method to support several Game Systems at once. This is innovative and can be cost-effective, but its success remains to be evaluated. This is truly new.

I wonder if Frank wanted to support 10 systems just because that sounds like a big deal, or if it’s because Thieves World’ (Chaosium—1981) only supported 9 rulesets:

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
Adventures in Fantasy
Chivalry & Sorcery
DragonQuest
Dungeons & Dragons
The Fantasy Trip
RuneQuest
Traveller
Tunnels & Trolls

I just glanced at the pizza and Mensers is more active there than his own Kickstarter. And I have to say reading it does not engender any additional faith in the quality of the setting. It's like watching some random person explaining their homegrown setting and house rules who has no concept of professional-grade publication. Very amateur.

I'm even more amateur, but I'm not seeking a quarter of a million dollars either.

The core premise is that all sentient specie modify their environment to some extent, but humans do it hastily. They lack foresight and context. They focus on what they want and destroy everything that gets in their way. The ancient demi-human races, by contrast, are less egoistic. They know how to create a win-win-win situation for themselves, other life forms, and the planet itself. The planet told them how (through druids). They've been doing this for 5,000 years; the humans (at 300+) are still learning, still adapting.

Intelligent tech remains in balance with the environment. Stupid Tech is a disease arising from pride (hubris) and arrogance.
But of course there's tech and there's Tech. The guideline is simple: If it helps you, good. If it replaces you, bad.

I think this falls under "common elven and human stereotypes". Nothing interesting or unique (to me) anywhere I look.

Falconer wrote:I wonder if Frank wanted to support 10 systems just because that sounds like a big deal, or if it’s because Thieves World’ (Chaosium—1981) only supported 9 rulesets:

Mine goes to 11. So, your game is already all the way to Runequest, but you need that something that's just a bit more. Where do you go? With my setting you go to Rolemaster, 11.

TRP wrote:

Falconer wrote: Mine goes to 11. So, your game is already all the way to Runequest, but you need that something that's just a bit more. Where do you go? With my setting you go to Rolemaster, 11.

Why make 11 the highest? Why not 10?

Whether the DF PM affects the kickstarter, I cannot say, though, I imagine it does.

I, for one, have had a fairly dramatic opinion shift after the whole DF fiasco. I have long been an apologist for BECMI over on DF, though, my tastes have changed a lot since then to be more geared towards AD&D (I mostly played 2E as a teen).

I used to think much higher of Frank. I had met him at NTRPG and played in his game. It was exciting to meet an old TSR guy, Frank was the one I knew most about. I never met Gary, though I did meet Arneson when he was teaching at Full Sail in Florida. I wasn't into D&D at that time in my life, or I would have spent a lot of my extra time gaming with him (I had some then, extra time that is).

At one point, I even wanted to create a true to the originals BECM clone (not an RC clone), and dedicate it to Frank for " his contributions to the hobby". (see this link...)

I never worshiped the guy, but my first experience with D&D was his Red box, and I thought it was magical. I still do.

I had noticed in his various posts at DF that he thought quite highly of himself. So reading that PM to EOTB was quite disturbing for me, because I thought highly of Frank.

It changed my opinion, but I figured, "hey, everybody has bad days, right?". But then he denied it. Then I saw the other PMs. Then I read about other things he had done. Then I noticed all the SJ stuff in the KS. I mean, I knew Frank was a liberal, but . . . well, I'll just end that thought train right there . . .

Suffice it to say, I likely would have backed this KS at one point. Maybe even a backed it a month ago at $100 level (though, I have never backed a KS before). But now I won't, because I can't get behind something like this.

So, maybe all that DF stuff didn't make much of a difference to some people. But to me, it did.

The planet told them how (through druids). They've been doing this for 5,000 years; the humans (at 300+) are still learning, still adapting.

This is interesting, because at cons I've read an earlier draft of empyrea, and in it the demihumans were former humans (who themselves were former earth humans) that changed after exposure to magical energies not present in Earth's solar system while exploring the galaxy.

So demis were a really recent fork from regular humanity that didn't have multi-thousand years of independent development/culture/etc.

He must have changed it to further hammer home his preferred object lesson.

Jeff wrote:Whether the DF PM affects the kickstarter, I cannot say, though, I imagine it does.

I, for one, have had a fairly dramatic opinion shift after the whole DF fiasco. I have long been an apologist for BECMI over on DF, though, my tastes have changed a lot since then to be more geared towards AD&D (I mostly played 2E as a teen).

I used to think much higher of Frank. I had met him at NTRPG and played in his game. It was exciting to meet an old TSR guy, Frank was the one I knew most about. I never met Gary, though I did meet Arneson when he was teaching at Full Sail in Florida. I wasn't into D&D at that time in my life, or I would have spent a lot of my extra time gaming with him (I had some then, extra time that is).

At one point, I even wanted to create a true to the originals BECM clone (not an RC clone), and dedicate it to Frank for " his contributions to the hobby". (see this link...)

I never worshiped the guy, but my first experience with D&D was his Red box, and I thought it was magical. I still do.

I had noticed in his various posts at DF that he thought quite highly of himself. So reading that PM to EOTB was quite disturbing for me, because I thought highly of Frank.

It changed my opinion, but I figured, "hey, everybody has bad days, right?". But then he denied it. Then I saw the other PMs. Then I read about other things he had done. Then I noticed all the SJ stuff in the KS. I mean, I knew Frank was a liberal, but . . . well, I'll just end that thought train right there . . .

Suffice it to say, I likely would have backed this KS at one point. Maybe even a backed it a month ago at $100 level (though, I have never backed a KS before). But now I won't, because I can't get behind something like this.

So, maybe all that DF stuff didn't make much of a difference to some people. But to me, it did.

Roughly same here.

Jeff wrote:At one point, I even wanted to create a true to the originals BECM clone (not an RC clone), and dedicate it to Frank for " his contributions to the hobby". (see this link...).

I missed that thread at the time. What made you decide to not do this. Sounds intriguing

RandomEncounter wrote: I believe you can only be villified if you selected an NPC tier AND voluntarily gave them writing material in the form of your character. I guess they could vilify your Kickstarter name. All the npc Noble tiers make me think of is a sloppy method of generating missing setting content via backer submissions.

Tell you what, if this gets funded (big if), and they end up sitting around trying to come up with insults and clever ways to "vilify" people, instead of actually writing content, I'd be pissed the hell off, if I were a backer.

Seriously, grow the fuck up. No wonder RPG players get portrayed as social misfits. No well adjusted, fully formed adult would stoop to this level of pettiness and fuckheadedness.

Well, I think one thing that this whole mess has confirmed for me: No matter your religion, philosophy, or politics, Fantasy RPGs are shit way to make statements about the real world.

I get about 100% too much of real-world problems in the real fucking world, for fucks sake.

I just want to play a character who goes to exotic locales, meets interesting and exotic creates, then kills them and takes their stuff. Oh, and I want my character to set some shit on fire once in a while, too.


The last couple posts brought to you by:

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ghendar wrote:

Jeff wrote:At one point, I even wanted to create a true to the originals BECM clone (not an RC clone), and dedicate it to Frank for " his contributions to the hobby". (see this link...).

I missed that thread at the time. What made you decide to not do this. Sounds intriguing

I had some personal issues that happened in the middle of the year during 2014 that took me away from anything D&D related except online forum browsing. It took about 6 months to clear all that up, and during that time 5E came out, which I picked up and started playing/DMing. I've been DMing 5E ever since, but that ship is about to finish it's last sail. I'll play 5E, but I don't want to DM it anymore.

This is a seriously inept Kickstarter - the kind Tenkar would be raking over the coals on a daily basis if it didn't have a "celebrity" attached. Given that the people involved can't even put together a decent KS, how much confidence are backers supposed to have when it comes to fulfillment?

I know - it's not going to fund, so it's a moot point.

Blackadder23 wrote:This is a seriously inept Kickstarter - the kind Tenkar would be raking over the coals on a daily basis if it didn't have a "celebrity" attached. .

YDIS needs an update.

francisca wrote:

RandomEncounter wrote: I believe you can only be villified if you selected an NPC tier AND voluntarily gave them writing material in the form of your character. I guess they could vilify your Kickstarter name. All the npc Noble tiers make me think of is a sloppy method of generating missing setting content via backer submissions.

Tell you what, if this gets funded (big if), and they end up sitting around trying to come up with insults and clever ways to "vilify" people, instead of actually writing content, I'd be pissed the hell off, if I were a backer.

Seriously, grow the fuck up. No wonder RPG players get portrayed as social misfits. No well adjusted, fully formed adult would stoop to this level of pettiness and fuckheadedness.

Well I think that's exactly what was stated. In multiple places. By Frank.