Frank Mentzer's Empyrea Fantasy Setting on KS

[Wheggi]

One of Alyssa Faden's Dungeon Maps (not blue and white though).

Link

It is a nice map, with a nice layout. Does she have any available to view that are publication caliber? I'd love to see what her end product looks like.

- Wheggi

[bobjester]

"Alyssa Faden"? Never heard of her. Did she make the "big names" list and I am just out of touch with the current market? Her maps are nice. Maybe she should drop the "Faden" and just go by Alyssa.

You might just be a smidge out of touch. ...or its because she mainly blogs to the OSR crowd, she might be on faceborg too.

But I've heard of her, and her maps are very good.

Wizardawn: That is a great summation of how I feel too. I wasn't even aware of the whole thing going down, but as a demi-member of DF, I felt that same sensation of a shrunken, wet, fuzzy dicebag across my cheek too.

Yeah, we get a little salty every once in awhile, but if you're a 'big-name' for how many years(?) and you still can't take a little mild roasting, you probably shouldn't be on forums, let alone turning around and asking for money.

[Kalex the Omen]

One of Alyssa Faden's Dungeon Maps (not blue and white though).

Link

It is a nice map, with a nice layout. Does she have any available to view that are publication caliber? I'd love to see what her end product looks like.

- Wheggi

Tony, let me see if this works...

Link

[Wheggi]

Very nice, thanks!

- Wheggi

[ghendar]

Please don't tar and feather me for knowing this, but that above map is what the players are handed before they try their luck inside those caves just outside of Northending. I played that region in a Lake Geneva Game Convention back in 2005.

I am pretty sure you are not going to get Mesner cooties because you played in one of his games. This thread extra-picks this KS apart for a couple of reasons. One...it is just poorly setup and executed. If this were any other KS, we would pick that apart. Two...this is extra-picked apart because it is Frank's KS and his outburst on DF really just scrapped his balls over our collective faces. I still struggle to find the "trolling" I keep hearing about, and failing. All I see is posts disagreeing with some things and his "I used to work at TSR so kneel before me" attitude summing the situations up to "trolling". I don't really hold any torch to these people and to quote Frank, "But game designers are people too, entirely human". So yup, Frank is just a person with feelings and opinions that will often conflict with others like ours do.

I think of situations with my daughter (13) where she will say things like "mom yelled at me for such and such", only for me to think back, "my wife didn't raise her voice one bit". But that wasn't the real issue. The issue is my wife told my daughter something she didn't want to hear so she was "yelling". So when you disagree with a legendary ex-TSR employee, you are basically "trolling" them.

I realize this may be a big digression from this topic, but that outburst on DF really hurt this KS to the point where people openly admit to not supporting him due to that alone. It was a bummer on Frank's part that he had a blow up just before going live with that KS. It also didn't help that Tanknerd posted about it because now it shows up on the top of the Google searches when you search for "Mentzer" and "Empyrea" so now people that don't visit DF can see what happened.

So it isn't an issue if someone likes Frank and/or likes playing in his games. That doesn't matter. Be a BECMI fan all day long. It doesn't make anyone associate Franks outburst to them personally...that is for Frank to own and own alone. I myself find these old timers' games to be quite underwhelming. I played is a couple and I didn't have the time of my life. I had way, way more fun playing in Keith's and Allan's games than I did in any gray beard's game. I am not stating that to give virtual handjobs...it is just Keith and Allan run games like I used to play. Kask's games are a confusing mess of "I am not even sure what game we are playing anymore".

So Frank can keep babbling about how many years he has been in the business and that he is not an amateur. Truth is, he is an amateur as he hasn't done anything substantial without the backing of a company like TSR. This sloppy KS seems to demonstrate that. I was never going to support it whether he was the friendliest guy in the world or not. If I still played AD&D constantly, I would have my own material and my own world. Ever since I got the Forgotten Realms box set, I decided not to use a published world ever again. But if I did, I wouldn't need to have an author empower me to put a tavern wherever in the hell I wanted...or throw Dragonlance material into it as I see fit. I would just do it. Hell, I would even maybe make a town called OSRGaming, and it is a ghost town with 1HD tumbleweeds roaming around.

Frank does come off as quite victimy doesn't he? I don't recall any of the old school RPG folks at DF having the issues he had.

Ultimately, what this all comes down to for me is that, despite initial interest and initial support, I don't think Empyrea (as described thus far) is useful for me. I backed out.

[Kalex the Omen]

Very nice, thanks!

- Wheggi

Da nada.

If I had to guess I'd bet Darlene is doing the continent level map (a la Eastern Oerik), Alyssa will probably be doing cities and dungeons, and Anna Meyer will be doing high level realistic globe maps to show the relationship of Aquaria to Oerik and so forth.

[DungeonMonkey]

Hard to know for sure, but I'm skeptical that the Dragonsfoot implosion hurt this kickstarter all that much, if at all. On its own merits, the kickstarter is really unappealing.

Mentzer has essentially tried to cash in on his on status as a TSR insider; problem is, his project on its face has zero appeal to most who fondly recall TSR-era D&D. Would any Alehouse regular have pledged this but for Dragonsfoot? I think I may be one of the few here who does not have unqualified scorn for 2E, and even I cannot see much of value in Empyrea.

The setting details are minimal despite 40 years of ostensible development. Those that have emerged run the gamut from boring to risible (e.g., a single united kingdom, slave plantations featuring orcs in blackface). We should hardly be surprised, being that Mentzer himself says he sucks at writing fantasy, which is sort of the whole ball of wax with a campaign setting.

Mentzer says systems are instead his specialty. But rather than offer a unique point of view, he instead aims to present Empyrea for a dozen or so existing systems. Even the details there are unclear, as the guidance on whether it will be presented in 1E, 2E, or some combination has been incomprehensible.

And for this he needs a quarter of a million dollars (which he apparently has raised before without notable product development resulting). That he has raised about $60 k so far is remarkable given the project's rollout. Any designer interested in putting out this product could do so with that much in funds, if the whole ego-driven this-is-the-biggest-industry-event-in-30-years hoopla could be set aside, and its focus was narrowed to one or two editions.

[MageInBlack]

Ultimately, what this all comes down to for me is that, despite initial interest and initial support, I don't think Empyrea (as described thus far) is useful for me. I backed out.

You backed out? As "you were in"' at one point? If that is true, your character will be vilified in Mesnerya according to the pledge levels.

[ghendar]

Ultimately, what this all comes down to for me is that, despite initial interest and initial support, I don't think Empyrea (as described thus far) is useful for me. I backed out.

You backed out? As "you were in"' at one point? If that is true, your character will be vilified in Mesnerya according to the pledge levels.

ooh, I can hardly wait.

[bobjester]

I shouldn't say that the DF implosion was the major factor in not backing this KS, I wouldn't backed it regardless of who wrote it, based on the information put out for it so far. But the DF implosion definitely started me spinning in the direction I'm heading now. Standing on one's own victimhood and not getting off that soapbox will pretty much turn me away every time.

On its own legs, this KS was written as a wheelchair bound invalid heading to the amputation wing.

I don't do KS, because I don't do online transactions often enough to keep up with security. Even my bank account gets minimal attention from me via internet.

But, I can see value when someone shows me something, and this KS, as a very good example, definitely grabbed my attention. Too bad, it ends today, and I never got to watch it develop: Survive This!! Dark Places & Demogorgons RPG Core Rulebook.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... s-rpg-core

My first impression was that this is at least unique enough to the OSR to warrant further investigation, only if it satisfies a few chuckles at the table for an hour or two, and then put away to get out the real game.

Those chuckles would be: nice spit-take on Mr. Meesik's red & blue box sets, the 1980's, and the sources of inspiration can be expanded to include horror like the very topical remake of Stephen King's "It". (I noticed that was missing from the back of the box blurb.)

I would'a backed this, had I been more KS savvy or financially capable (and finances wouldn't take a whole lot to get up currently), and I would have known about it not on the last day.

Ghendar: I saw that you backed this & stated so at the Piazza. Have you heard how other supporters there feel about the KS? I haven't heard anything there, and considering my distaste for it, it would be better for everyone all around if I stayed out of Mentzer's threads.

[RandomEncounter]

Ultimately, what this all comes down to for me is that, despite initial interest and initial support, I don't think Empyrea (as described thus far) is useful for me. I backed out.

You backed out? As "you were in"' at one point? If that is true, your character will be vilified in Mesnerya according to the pledge levels.

I believe you can only be villified if you selected an NPC tier AND voluntarily gave them writing material in the form of your character. I guess they could vilify your Kickstarter name. All the npc Noble tiers make me think of is a sloppy method of generating missing setting content via backer submissions.

That's funny, Mensers title on the pizza is troll.

[RFlowers]

I would'a backed this, had I been more KS savvy or financially capable (and finances wouldn't take a whole lot to get up currently), and I would have known about it not on the last day.

Well you still have 8 hours. I might gamble $10 for the PDF... not so sure I would ever see a physical copy of anything at the $19 level, though...

Ghendar: I saw that you backed this & stated so at the Piazza. Have you heard how other supporters there feel about the KS? I haven't heard anything there, and considering my distaste for it, it would be better for everyone all around if I stayed out of Mentzer's threads.

I'm sure the Piazza does the right thing, and deletes any poo-flinging posts, as well as banning the troll authors.

[bobjester]

I would'a backed this, had I been more KS savvy or financially capable (and finances wouldn't take a whole lot to get up currently), and I would have known about it not on the last day.

Well you still have 8 hours. I might gamble $10 for the PDF... not so sure I would ever see a physical copy of anything at the $19 level, though...

8 hours left, and payday is still over a week away.

Ghendar: I saw that you backed this & stated so at the Piazza. Have you heard how other supporters there feel about the KS? I haven't heard anything there, and considering my distaste for it, it would be better for everyone all around if I stayed out of Mentzer's threads.

I'm sure the Piazza does the right thing, and deletes any poo-flinging posts, as well as banning the troll authors.

That's just it, I don't want to get banned from the site for invading someone else's 'safe space'. Its a great site, but my opinions are not widely recognized as 'polite' over there, so I have to bite my tongue. A lot.

[MageInBlack]

But, I can see value when someone shows me something, and this KS, as a very good example, definitely grabbed my attention. Too bad, it ends today, and I never got to watch it develop: Survive This!! Dark Places & Demogorgons RPG Core Rulebook.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... s-rpg-core

My first impression was that this is at least unique enough to the OSR to warrant further investigation, only if it satisfies a few chuckles at the table for an hour or two, and then put away to get out the real game.

LOL! They are cashing in on "Stranger Things" without cashing in on "Stranger Things". A 200 page rule book (at least thus far) seems reasonable. It looks like it has enough for a long campaign. The artwork by itself is fine, but put together in a book and it throws your eyes off...going from one style to the next.

Hey, Frank. If you are lurking here, this is something you can take note of. The guys who are making this game stated this delightful piece of information:

"Dark Places & Demogorgons has been fully written, designed, laid out and play tested."

[ghendar]

Ghendar: I saw that you backed this & stated so at the Piazza. Have you heard how other supporters there feel about the KS? I haven't heard anything there, and considering my distaste for it, it would be better for everyone all around if I stayed out of Mentzer's threads.

No idea. There seems to be zero critical talk of it on the Piazza, which frankly doesn't surprise me much.
I really wanted to like this. I have very fond memories of Frank's BECM work but this setting just doesn't offer enough utility to make it worth my while. Something like the Wilderlands? Yes! Empyrea? not so much. All the other ancillary critical discussion and various revelations (I wasn't aware of the DF PM thing) also leaves an ever increasingly bad taste in my mouth.