Not crazy about how Hydrae are handled in AD&D

[thedungeondelver]

I'm planning on using one soon, and I was looking over the rules, which state that the hydra has HD equivalent to the # of heads, and each head has 1d8 HP, and it takes that much damage to "kill" a head (setting aside the dreaded Laernea hydrae for a moment).

However, it says nothing for the body of the hydra, or am I misreading it?

[Thorkhammer]

You've got it about right.

I, too, have always strongly disliked (read: hated) the treatment of Hydra in the MM and rules system.

If you ever get a chance, watch the old film "Jason and the Argonauts" and you'll see, when the time comes, Jason kills the beast with a well planted 20/double-damage right into the beast's heart; cutting off heads wasn't even bothered with.

But, for by the book then, you should play it as it lays.

If you wish to "tinker about" then give the beast's body the same # of hp total of all the heads. If the heads are severed, it isn't dead, just flops about blindly trying to claw at anything for -4 to hit and 1-8 damage per hit. Killing the body requires a piercing weapon (blunt and slashing do only 1/2 or 1 hp damage per strike) to enter the body, with a chance of striking a vital organ (read: heart) based on the weapon's damage: d8=1 in 8; d10=1 in 10, etc.

That's all I can figure. Oh, except, severed heads will actually grow a NEW BODY in 1 week, thus the reproductive system of the hydra makes vorpalling them a problem! The bloody necks will regrow a head in 1 day as well.

[thedungeondelver]

Actually I was a bit wrong. Per the Monster Manual, the creature has d8+4 heads (5-12) and 8 hit points per head, not 1-8.

It's going to be tough for the party of adventurers - three dual-classed types (fighter/thief, fighter/magic-user/thief, fighter/cleric, all 2nd level) and a single ranger of 1st level as they'll basically be fighting 5 monsters with 8HP but which attack as 5HD creatures and inflicting 1d6 damage per attack.

Players have AC1, AC7, AC2 and AC4 respectively.

Hydra will hit the AC7 character approximately 50% of the time, avg. 3.5 points of damage per attack.

The ranger is AC4 and has a short bow (+2) and will likely hang back supporting characters by keeping the other heads in check with bowshot.

The fighter/cleric has exceptional strength and a warhammer +1, so is effectively fighting one level better, and will thus hit 70% of the time, for an average of 5.5 points of damage. Smashy smashy!

If the f/mu/th and f/th use their +1 daggers, they'll do slightly better.

I predict the fight will last 6 rounds, and that the f/th will be seriously injured (>6 HP) when the dust settles. There's quite a treasure haul waiting for them under the copper crockery the poor deceased merchant and his wife were hauling before they were waylaid by the beast!

[Benoist]

I actually like that. And I like the Giant Squid with the way the tentacles are treated too.

You've got two ways to deal about the body while running the thing btb. (1) Damage directed at the body itself doesn't do any significant damage to the creature: the hide is too thick, there's an entire layer of protective fat, whatever you want. (2) You substract damage from the total hit points of the hydra. Heads still have 8 HP each, and can be severed as normal. The creature dies when it reaches 0 general HPs (with one or more heads still attached, then, if the body was injured in the process). This could lead to interesting developments linked to those remaining heads. Maybe the hydra itself could regenerate its severed heads and come back to life if you don't take care of those remaining after its killed the first time. That'd be cool.

[thedungeondelver]

I actually like that. And I like the Giant Squid with the way the tentacles are treated too.

You've got two ways to deal about the body while running the thing btb. (1) Damage directed at the body itself doesn't do any significant damage to the creature: the hide is too thick, there's an entire layer of protective fat, whatever you want. (2) You substract damage from the total hit points of the hydra. Heads still have 8 HP each, and can be severed as normal. The creature dies when it reaches 0 general HPs (with one or more heads still attached, then, if the body was injured in the process). This could lead to interesting developments linked to those remaining heads. Maybe the hydra itself could regenerate its severed heads and come back to life if you don't take care of those remaining after its killed the first time. That'd be cool.

That's definitely a good way of looking at it/justifying it - nothing short of a disintegrate spell or other magic can really damage the body, but the heads are the weak point (in your bog-standard hydrae; magical evolution having given rise to the Laernean and Thessalo- hydra types that are more robust/evenly balanced in terms of protection).

The severing of the heads is a slow process by which jugular veins are cut and it bleeds to death under the pain of all those attacks...

I can roll with that.

[thedungeondelver]

Incidentally, I talk about things like this here because at least one of my players in my Castle Delve game read my forums. There's been a hue and cry about the lack of income opportunities, so basically when they go back, they may (may) notice that there's signs of something having been dragged into one of the many caves that peppers the hill upon which the ruin of Castle Delve sits.

What has happened is that a young Hydra, having been thrown out of its boggy nest by its dear progenitors, has galumphed across the plains seeking the occasional meal and waylaid a wagon carrying a well-to-do coppersmith (carrying a load of his wares - 1000 cp or 5 GP worth ) and has eaten one of the horses (the other, severely wounded and dazed, is wandering outside, a good hint to the players) and keeping the bodies of the coppersmith and his wife aside for later.

The wagonload of wares also include the fallen couple's finery, many many thousands of GP in jewelry and gems (just a few items). They're well hidden in the cart so the party will have to search for them. No gimmies!

[AxeMental]

My read is that the entire beast can take its total HPs damage (derived from the number of heads it has).

So if you direct all your attacks at the body you can still kill it (inflicting say 35 pts damage, if thats its total HP). Or you can direct it all to the heads and do the same, or half to the heads and half to the body. I rule that once a head is dead additional damage to that head does no good (say with blunt weapons). Of course, the smart thing to do is chop off the heads and limit the beasts attacks.
So: kill it by taking out only the body, only the heads or some combo.

[SimperingToad]

Last time I recall coming up against one as a player, the DM did the standard MM fare regarding HPs, with no appreciable damage to the body. But, he did allow me to have my mu/thief hamstring the sucker so we could retreat and keep it at a comfortable distance.

[Stormcrow]

AD&D Second Edition included a rule that for every 8 points of damage done to a hydra, it is assumed that one of its heads is severed. This may have been what was originally intended: for every hit die worth of hit points (8) lost, one head, which is equal to one hit die, is killed or severed.

Supporting this notion is the fact that the heads do not have independent armor class scores. There is no notion of "attacking only the body" or "attacking to chop off a head" with a hydra.

[grodog]

When I ran a 14-headed aquatic hydra last year at GaryCon and NTX, I rolled PC attack damage randomly against the heads, as if they were separate combatants in the melee; this definitely increased the toughness of the encounter---some heads were hit multiple times over, thereby "wasting" some PC attacks, and also making it harder to kill any one individual head if it wasn't killed outright from a single blow. The sheer # of attacks per round also makes it difficult to get spells off successfully too (it didn't help that they were in boats, either, of course ).

I ran the heads with 8 hp each, and boosted the damage/attack based on the DMG Appendix E values to 1-12 damage per bite, and gave it two additional "fluke" attacks per round @ 3-10 (d10+2) per fluke. Unfortunately, I rolled badly and wasn't able to capsize their boats =( (using the dragon turtle rules).

If only I'd rolled the 20-headed hydra instead....

[Matthew]

AD&D Second Edition included a rule that for every 8 points of damage done to a hydra, it is assumed that one of its heads is severed. This may have been what was originally intended: for every hit die worth of hit points (8) lost, one head, which is equal to one hit die, is killed or severed.

Supporting this notion is the fact that the heads do not have independent armor class scores. There is no notion of "attacking only the body" or "attacking to chop off a head" with a hydra.

Also how it works in OD&D as far as I can see.

[thedungeondelver]

The relevant text for the Hydra in the Monster Manual is thus:

Hydrae are reptilian monsters found in marshes, swamps and similar places, as well as in subterranean lairs. Their large, four-egged bodies are surmounted by from 5 to 12 heads (roll an 8-sided die to determine number). Each head has 1 hit die of 8 full hit points. When all of a hydra's heads are killed, the body dies, but not until each and every head is killed. The hydra attacks according to the number of heads it has, each head being considered a hit die. Thus, a hydra of 7 heads attacks as a monster of 7 hit dice. It is possible for the hydra to attack several opponents at once, and up to 4 heads are able to attack the same target simultaneously. Damage scored is based on the number of heads the hydra has: hydrae of 5 or 6 heads do 1-6 hit points of damage/attack, those with 7 to 10 heads score 1-8 hit points of damage, and hydrae with 11 or 12 heads do 1-10 hit points of damage.

What we can infer from this:

Each head is a separate, 8-hit point "monster". (" Each head has 1 hit die of 8 full hit points.")

Each head can be attacked separately. ("When all of a hydra's heads are killed, the body dies, but not until each and every head is killed.")

So I think I got this now.

[Juju EyeBall]

If a head is killed does it now attack as one HD less?

[Thorkhammer]

If a head is killed does it now attack as one HD less?

NO.
That's cuckoo.
Does a fighter attack as 1 hd less when he is down 8 hp?

What's fair for the players is fair for the monsters and vice versa!

So let it be said.
So let it be written.

[Juju EyeBall]

If a head is killed does it now attack as one HD less?

NO.
That's cuckoo.
Does a fighter attack as 1 hd less when he is down 8 hp?

What's fair for the players is fair for the monsters and vice versa!

So let it be said.
So let it be written.

But, the hydra could be benefitting from the awareness of the extra heads...
As heads are killed it is losing more and more awareness as well as bleeding out and losing mobility as each neck ceases to move.

I'd think a hydra with one head left would be easy pickings.