Would the spell Detect Evil detect an orc?

[foxroe]

Actually, the DM could probably rule that a Paladin or Detect Evil spell could sense a horde of evilly aligned low-level types, like say a group of 8 or more orcs.

[Matthew]

I disagree. An orc has committed evil acts, and is steeped in foulness, from birth. Although it is not specifically stated in the rules, I think the intent is to apply the level limit only in cases where a race is eligible for PHB classes. Shaman and Witch Doctor are not PHB classes. If the orc isn't detectable, then a werewolf wouldn't be detectable (only 4+3 HD). BtB I think there is room in the description to allow for these cases, as the monsters no more have character classes than an evil altar.

Going outside btb, I think Gygax wanted to do some retconning here but went so far it makes no sense. If only 1% of a population will be of the superior type who can exceed 0-level, how many of those 1% will become 8th level? .000001%?

I think the limitation of must be actively considering evil actions is sufficient to prevent Paladins from running amok.

The DMG is totally clear. It is simply wishful thinking to imagine this is only intended for classed characters. People are free to ignore the rule, of course, but the intent is obviously to limit the "ping" factor.

[ScottyG]

I believe it was a retro 'fix' of a spell that was being abused. Reading the spell in the PH, there's nothing that makes me believe there was any kind of qualifier on the evil alignment being detectable.
So here's a question, if an evil creature isn't evil enough to radiate evil and be detectable by this spell, would he be evil enough to take the -2 penalty to hit a target protected by protection from evil?

[Matthew]

I believe it was a retro 'fix' of a spell that was being abused. Reading the spell in the PH, there's nothing that makes me believe there was any kind of qualifier on the evil alignment being detectable. So here's a question, if an evil creature isn't evil enough to radiate evil and be detectable by this spell, would he be evil enough to take the -2 penalty to hit a target protected by protection from evil?

Yes. Apparently not emanating evil does not preclude holding evil inside oneself. I agree that it is a post facto fix, as are, I would suggest, most of the expanded spell descriptions in the DMG.

[TRP]

DMG trumps PHB.

No way, man!

Way, man! Every. Single. Time.

[AxeMental]

I don't read the PH as clearly stating that it detects characters alignments. It says it will detect emanations of evil alignment. Thats like something radiating that alignment (which I don't think personality is enough) I think its a supernatural thing.

I absolutely agree that Detect Evil works differently from Know Alignment. I'm even willing to accept that different DMs might want to limit a Paladin's power to detect evil in a way that I don't. But that's not what you asked.

The actual PHB text for the cleric spell says (emphasis mine): "This is a spell which discovers emanations of evil, or of good in the case in the case of the reverse spell, from any creature or object. For example, evil alignment or an evilly cursed object will radiate evil, but a hidden trap or unintelligent viper will not." The magic-user version says it works the same way.

By a plain reading of the PHB, an orc (creature = check, evil alignment = check) will radiate evil emanations within range of the cleric and m-u spells.

I read that as it 1. has an alignment of evil (or good) and 2. it has to be strong enough to emanate (strong enough to project outside of itself). A creature that is very evil (say a demon) will project that evil outside of itself. An orc just isn't evil enough.

[godentag]

DMG trumps PHB.

No way, man!

Way, man! Every. Single. Time.

Dude. No. Way.

PHB4EVA!!11!!1!

[EOTB]

If an orc isn't evil enough for the spell/power, than it shouldn't be called detect evil, because that's at best no longer descriptive, and at worst, false advertising.

It should now be called "Detect the Outer Edges of Infinite Depravity", since that's the level that triggers getting some feedback - unless of course, it's being used on an altar dedicated by an orc who wouldn't trigger the spell itself. Then, it would work.

[AxeMental]

I feel your pain. I remember the first time I heard about the cleric's "command spell" (if you fail you have to do what the cleric says). Having just watched Scanners I was very eager to try this out....of course when I discovered it was one word, I felt cheated.



I really think Detect Evil was supposed to be for those creatures and objects with supernatural evil or magical properties. Orcs are monsters, but still a race like humans.

Infact I can't think of any living creature native to the prime material plane that would glow magical due to their nature alone.

[godentag]

I really think Detect Evil was supposed to be for those creatures and objects with supernatural evil or magical properties. Orcs are monsters, but still a race like humans.

Infact I can't think of any living creature native to the prime material plane that would glow magical due to their nature alone.

Red Dragons? Frost and Fire Giants? Ogre Magi?

[T. Foster]

I sort of agree with the notion of Detect Evil being, in effect, "detect supernatural connection to the lower/negative planes" and think there's a good chance it would've been redefined more along those lines if the system had been allowed to continue to develop in the way it was in the early-mid 80s (with the planes coming to play a more and more central role). Under this reading undead and lower-planar creatures and anything with connection to an evil deity (including, for instance, evil clerics' holy symbols, evil-aligned magic swords, evil altars, spells cast by evil clerics that are in effect) would be detected by the spell, but not "natural" creatures and characters of evil alignment. Of course that's not BTB, though...

[Falconer]

This all kind of reminds me of how the later printings of OD&D changed Clerics from having to pick between Law and Chaos from the start, to having to pick at 7th level.

[AxeMental]

I really think Detect Evil was supposed to be for those creatures and objects with supernatural evil or magical properties. Orcs are monsters, but still a race like humans.

Infact I can't think of any living creature native to the prime material plane that would glow magical due to their nature alone.

Red Dragons? Frost and Fire Giants? Ogre Magi?

No, I don't think so.

Foster, do you think an evil/good holy symbol would be detectable (say under a cloak)? My impression is that the holy symbol, though blessed, is just a thing to focus the power, not the power itself (so perhaps as it was being used it might glow, assuming the person using it is a cleric). You get that "focusing tool" vibe watching old Hammer vampire movies: often times, the vampire will grab the cross from the hands of his would be slayer and crush it, saying something like "you have to believe for that to work". I just rewatched Fright Night a few weeks ago that had a scene like this. Since alot of what 1E clerics seem to be based on is Hammer films they should probably be considered.


Fright Night was an 80s movie with Roddy Mcdowall (plays a hack actor who's "lost the faith" but gets it back killing a real vamp), incase you don't remember or never saw it.

[godentag]

I really think Detect Evil was supposed to be for those creatures and objects with supernatural evil or magical properties. Orcs are monsters, but still a race like humans.

Infact I can't think of any living creature native to the prime material plane that would glow magical due to their nature alone.

Red Dragons? Frost and Fire Giants? Ogre Magi?

No, I don't think so.

So your btb interpretation is that although a huge ancient red can that can attack creatures hittable only by +4 or better weapons, may be able to cast spells up to 4th level, radiates a fear aura, can detect invisible inherently, and is described as "of all the evil dragons this sort is the worst" doesn't get picked up by detect evil? What a ridiculous, unnecessary nerfing of an otherwise extremely useful spell.

Question: Why would any cleric choose such a worthless option over cure light wounds or command or sanctuary?

Answer: They never would, so my "evil" PC is safe from paranoid nosy clergy that could get him into trouble when he does his super evil eviltry off-camera. Whew, safe!

It seems to me you're confusing your first level detection spells, making detect evil a more limited version of detect magic, without any basis except personal preference. That's okay as a homebrew, but your version of the spell didn't become btb until 3E, Axe...maybe you should try that version? -zing!-

[AxeMental]

I guess I just think of it as a spell that relates to the classic undead, and otherworldly evils (found in places like hell). Detect evil is very helpful in a dungeon with undead hiding (since they don't radiate heat) particularly Ghouls given their number of stunning attacks (a surprise can wipe out a party).

But as DM I would make an exception for your cleric PC Godentag. I would call it detect upside down smile (which would detect anyone in a bad mood / reversable to detect smilely (helpful for your PC in gay bars).