No Baby... I Gotta Say It

[thedungeondelver]

Oh Look! Someone who might conceivably have an original thought rattling around upstairs.

http://www.autarch.co/

Irony, thy name is James' post. One of the tags on that page reads "frank mentzer", the what third guy to photocopy of basic D&D?

[bobjester]

Oh Look! Someone who might conceivably have an original thought rattling around upstairs.

http://www.autarch.co/

Irony, thy name is James' post. One of the tags on that page reads "frank mentzer", the what third guy to photocopy of basic D&D?

Sometimes the changes come 'round real slowly. I heard about this game a few days ago. Sounds intriguing, and something I would like to look at one day.

[Matthew]

Okay, but only for the biographies.

"Dear Razzle, I was very pleased to see that you have begun including pull out AD&D material as part of your regular offerings, it truly goes a long way towards improving your magazine and caters to the diverse interests of your readership. Indeed, my friend Daniel insists that he only buys Razzle for the AD&D content and throws the rest into a nearby bin, but the secret stack of magazines under his bed suggests otherwise. In short, keep up the good work, such exciting content certainly keeps me up of a night!"

[Kellri]

Razzle Ed. - Thanks Matthew for your letter of support, you'll be happy to know we're making next ish all-AD&D. It's the gentle fans like you that keep us working in Tea-Asar.

[Ghul]

I must plead guilty of much that is discussed and frankly frowned upon in this thread. For close to three years I have been at work on my own retro-clone, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea. The rules would read quite familiar to you, my peer group here at K&KA, as they draw off the same source material as OSRIC and S&W, though they contain several twists and variations unique to the system. But at its roots it is clearly derived from 0e and 1e; inspiration is derived from Holmes, too. Insofar as much that AS&SH has hp, HD, AC (descending), the six major attributes, d6 initiative, the 4 principal classes (fighter, magician, cleric, thief), and so forth, it might be viewed as a "clone," though there is no great effort to hew as close as legally possible to any one previous system. So begs the question, and it is a valid question: Why bother? Why bother when we already have an OSRIC, S&W, LL, BFRPG, C&C, Hackmaster, LofFP, et al.?

From the outset of this project I have embraced a basic concept: rules that inform the setting, and setting that informs the rules. The idea was to tune down the high fantasy elements of the source material (hobbits, elves, goblins, etc.) and tune up the pulp elements: ape-men, snake-men, great race, elder things, mi-go, deep ones, etc. Several races of men may be selected from (Amazons, Cimmerians, Esquimaux, Hyperboreans, Kelts, Vikings, etc.), and the principal 4 character classes are supported by the optional inclusion of 18 subclasses. Traditional monsters are tweaked to match the Hyperborea setting, as are magic items, and even spells in some cases. The geography of the realm is a flat earth, hexagonal shaped plane where the seas spill off the rim of the world, and the main continent of Hyperborea (whose geographies and histories are described in brief treatments) is populated by disharmonious men, beasts, monsters, and beings of otherworldly origin.

So what is the end result of 3 years of part time labor? I'm afraid to admit, the whole of it can be viewed in this light: some guy trying to sell you his campaign notes and house rules. I do intend to print hundreds of copies, boxed sets that will contain booklets (larger than digest), map, dice, and so forth. Will it be considered interesting and useful to a few dozen, hundred, or maybe more gamers? I don't know. Ian Baggley (the project artist) and I have been at this thing non-stop for a long time, and we've received valuable contributions from some very creative fellows (some of whom post here). Notwithstanding, AS&SH may well generate the same "No Baby... I Gotta Say It" response (maybe not from James B. per se), which I am willing to accept, as I have been in the driver's seat of this thing from its inception, and ultimately I have made the design choices.

[blackprinceofmuncie]

I have been in the driver's seat of this thing from its inception, and ultimately I have made the design choices.

If no one declares their intention to kick you in the balls over your efforts, you can probably consider yourself the most successful OSR publisher of all time.

[Chainsaw]

Well Jeff, based on what I know of AS&SH from talking to you about it, reading about it, playing it at Gary Con and seeing it through Ian's original art, I'd put you in a category all your own. Honestly, I'm pretty excited about getting a copy of the game for all the reasons you mention in your post. I really, really dig the pulpy elements and you're doing all the heavy lifting to bring those together (races, classes, spells, abilities, monsters, etc) under a rules framework that I already know (which is great because I am too god damned lazy to learn an entirely new system AND actually like the one I use now), but that has some variations that you think help convey the setting and your vision.

As long as you don't pose naked with any dice bags on your ass, we're cool.

Edit: stupid phone keyboard is typo city.

[Flambeaux]

I have been in the driver's seat of this thing from its inception, and ultimately I have made the design choices.

If no one declares their intention to kick you in the balls over your efforts, you can probably consider yourself the most successful OSR publisher of all time.

LOL!

[JasonZavoda]

I must plead guilty of much that is discussed and frankly frowned upon in this thread. For close to three years I have been at work on my own retro-clone, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea. The rules would read quite familiar to you, my peer group here at K&KA, as they draw off the same source material as OSRIC and S&W, though they contain several twists and variations unique to the system. But at its roots it is clearly derived from 0e and 1e; inspiration is derived from Holmes, too. Insofar as much that AS&SH has hp, HD, AC (descending), the six major attributes, d6 initiative, the 4 principal classes (fighter, magician, cleric, thief), and so forth, it might be viewed as a "clone," though there is no great effort to hew as close as legally possible to any one previous system. So begs the question, and it is a valid question: Why bother? Why bother when we already have an OSRIC, S&W, LL, BFRPG, C&C, Hackmaster, LofFP, et al.?

From the outset of this project I have embraced a basic concept: rules that inform the setting, and setting that informs the rules. The idea was to tune down the high fantasy elements of the source material (hobbits, elves, goblins, etc.) and tune up the pulp elements: ape-men, snake-men, great race, elder things, mi-go, deep ones, etc. Several races of men may be selected from (Amazons, Cimmerians, Esquimaux, Hyperboreans, Kelts, Vikings, etc.), and the principal 4 character classes are supported by the optional inclusion of 18 subclasses. Traditional monsters are tweaked to match the Hyperborea setting, as are magic items, and even spells in some cases. The geography of the realm is a flat earth, hexagonal shaped plane where the seas spill off the rim of the world, and the main continent of Hyperborea (whose geographies and histories are described in brief treatments) is populated by disharmonious men, beasts, monsters, and beings of otherworldly origin.

So what is the end result of 3 years of part time labor? I'm afraid to admit, the whole of it can be viewed in this light: some guy trying to sell you his campaign notes and house rules. I do intend to print hundreds of copies, boxed sets that will contain booklets (larger than digest), map, dice, and so forth. Will it be considered interesting and useful to a few dozen, hundred, or maybe more gamers? I don't know. Ian Baggley (the project artist) and I have been at this thing non-stop for a long time, and we've received valuable contributions from some very creative fellows (some of whom post here). Notwithstanding, AS&SH may well generate the same "No Baby... I Gotta Say It" response (maybe not from James B. per se), which I am willing to accept, as I have been in the driver's seat of this thing from its inception, and ultimately I have made the design choices.

Campaign notes can be interesting and I can see someone selling them all cleaned up as a setting. House rules, ehhh... a little interest if they were free, but another clone rule set, for myself I have zero interest.

Adventures though, I'm in. I love adventures and everything else is really low or no prioirty.

[bobjester]

I must plead guilty of much that is discussed and frankly frowned upon in this thread.

You've already been a part of some very good quality work that I like, so after your description here, I wouldn't hesitate to give this a shot when it comes out.

[Ghul]

I have been in the driver's seat of this thing from its inception, and ultimately I have made the design choices.

If no one declares their intention to kick you in the balls over your efforts, you can probably consider yourself the most successful OSR publisher of all time.

Actually, if no one wants to kick me in the balls, I think I might be doing something wrong!

[Ghul]

Well Jeff, based on what I know of AS&SH from talking to you about it, reading about it, playing it at Gary Con and seeing it through Ian's original art, I'd put you in a category all your own. Honestly, I'm pretty excited about getting a copy of the game for all the reasons you mention in your post. I really, really dig the pulpy elements and you're doing all the heavy lifting to bring those together (races, classes, spells, abilities, monsters, etc) under a rules framework that I already know (which is great because I am too god damned lazy to learn an entirely new system AND actually like the one I use now), but that has some variations that you think help convey the setting and your vision.

Thanks, Donovan. It means a lot to hear you are excited about getting copy. I can't say all the variations convey setting; some are merely an alternative approach to the traditional method, but in other cases there are design choices that I feel help convey pulp S&S action.

As long as you don't pose naked with any dice bags on your ass, we're cool.

So, you're saying I should shoot for full frontal?

[Ghul]

@JasonZ -- You bring to light another design goal that I've failed to mention: compatibility with traditional rules and the various simulacra allows me to continue to publish Hyperborea adventures that may be used with the AS&SH rules set, or with other systems. To date I have received reports of my Charnel Crypt of the Sightless Serpent adventure, and also my Rats in the Walls adventure played with 0e, 1e, Moldvay, 3.5e, 4e, PF, C&C, LL, S&W, LofFP, and OSRIC.

@bobjester -- That's very kind of you, thank you.

[tacojohn4547]

Well Jeff, based on what I know of AS&SH from talking to you about it, reading about it, playing it at Gary Con and seeing it through Ian's original art, I'd put you in a category all your own. Honestly, I'm pretty excited about getting a copy of the game for all the reasons you mention in your post. I really, really dig the pulpy elements and you're doing all the heavy lifting to bring those together (races, classes, spells, abilities, monsters, etc) under a rules framework that I already know (which is great because I am too god damned lazy to learn an entirely new system AND actually like the one I use now), but that has some variations that you think help convey the setting and your vision.

As long as you don't pose naked with any dice bags on your ass, we're cool.

Edit: stupid phone keyboard is typo city.

I know this isn't the 'let's lavish some love on Ghul's ASS(H)' thread (sorry Jeff, couldn't help myself... that should have been Ghul's AS&SH thread), but having run a couple of Jeff's adventures over the years that I've known him, I'll buy his AS&SH boxed set sight unseen, whenever it comes out. Hell, I might buy two or three sets, just because.

[francisca]

I know this isn't the 'let's lavish some love on Ghul's ASS(H)' thread (sorry Jeff, couldn't help myself... that should have been Ghul's AS&SH thread), but having run a couple of Jeff's adventures over the years that I've known him, I'll buy his AS&SH boxed set sight unseen, whenever it comes out. Hell, I might buy two or three sets, just because.

I agree with Jon, though I'll give the barstool-speak version: it's good effing shit, man.

Also, Jeff, I think there comes a point where a set of houserules, setting-informed principals, etc.. outweigh the books from which the core rules are drawn. At that point, you might as well re-order and recompile the whole, even if the end result is a clearly derivative game. I know I once reached that point, and after looking at the greybook, all the retroclones, etc.. started in on my own game, before realizing it would never get finished and abandoning the project. So, even at that, its worth doing if you got the time.

You'll note this is in the shadow of my own "jumping off the retroclone bandwagon" pronouncement some time ago. I am, and always will be, an AD&D player first and foremost, but I'm certainly not as adverse to a restatement/re-imagining of default look and feel, but damnit, it better be *different* enough in look and feel to be worth it. From what I've seen of your stuff, it is.