Poleaxe stats

[Benoist]

I must be missing something, but I looked through UA and, though I see the description of the weapon in the appendix, I actually don't see the stats of the weapon anywhere.

What are the stats of the poleaxe? Should I just consider it as a battle axe or some related polearm? Though it's not exactly like a halberd or anything. Hm.

[BlackBat242]

Umm... if you re-read the description of the "pole axe" on page 125 of the UA, then read the first sentence of the very next entry (halberd), you should realize that "pole axe" is a general term for a group of weapons, while the halberd is a specific type of "pole axe".

Then the first sentence of the bardiche description mentions that it is a transitional step between a "pole axe" and a "pole cleaver".

"Pole cleaver" likewise does not rate an entry in the table of weapons on pages 26 & 27 of the UA, because it too is a general term for a group of weapons, with the voulge and lochaber axe being described as specific types of "pole cleaver".


Pole axe & pole cleaver = names for groups of weapons, not for specific weapons.

[BlackBat242]

If you want to create stats for other weapons that would fit as "pole axes", I would start with the halberd entry, then modify as needed.

[Matthew]

The pole-axe is generally thought to be a good candidate for the missing weapon from AD&D referenced by Gygax. Strategic Review describes it in these terms:

The Pole Axe is basically covered already in the Halberd, although the effectiveness of the former was not as great as the latter. Those who so desire can include the weapon by adjusting the score for the Halbred upwards by one in the top five armor classes.

The Lochaber Axe is a type of Halberd, and it should be treated as such. As many forms of the Halberd, however, had a piercing spike rather than a hook opposing the cutting blade, figures equipped with this kind of weapon can be allowed the capability of pulling a mounted man from his horse.

Following those guidelines might get you:

Weapon Type

Speed

Length

Space

Encumbrance

AC 0

AC 1

AC 2

AC 3

AC 4

AC 5

AC 6

AC 7

AC 8

AC 9

AC 10

Damage

Halberd

9

5’+'

5'

175

+0

+1

+1

+1

+1

+2

+2

+2

+1

+1

+0

1-10/2-12

Pole Axe

9

5’+'

5'

175

−1

+0

+0

+0

+0

+1

+1

+2

+1

+1

+0

1-10/2-12

[T. Foster]

The pole-axe is generally thought to be a good candidate for the missing weapon from AD&D referenced by Gygax.

IIRC this was actually confirmed by EGG to be the case.

[Benoist]

Umm... if you re-read the description of the "pole axe" on page 125 of the UA, then read the first sentence of the very next entry (halberd), you should realize that "pole axe" is a general term for a group of weapons, while the halberd is a specific type of "pole axe".

Yes, I understand. That's what I got from reading the descriptions of polearms in UA as well. What I was searching for was the poleaxe as showcased in this video.

Could that really be considered a polearm, technically? I don't know, looking at the way they fight with it, it looks more like a melee weapon to me.

[Benoist]

The pole-axe is generally thought to be a good candidate for the missing weapon from AD&D referenced by Gygax. Strategic Review describes it in these terms:

The Pole Axe is basically covered already in the Halberd, although the effectiveness of the former was not as great as the latter. Those who so desire can include the weapon by adjusting the score for the Halbred upwards by one in the top five armor classes.

The Lochaber Axe is a type of Halberd, and it should be treated as such. As many forms of the Halberd, however, had a piercing spike rather than a hook opposing the cutting blade, figures equipped with this kind of weapon can be allowed the capability of pulling a mounted man from his horse.

Following those guidelines might get you:

Weapon Type

Speed

Length

Space

Encumbrance

AC 0

AC 1

AC 2

AC 3

AC 4

AC 5

AC 6

AC 7

AC 8

AC 9

AC 10

Damage

Halberd

9

5’+'

5'

175

+0

+1

+1

+1

+1

+2

+2

+2

+1

+1

+0

1-10/2-12

Pole Axe

9

5’+'

5'

175

−1

+0

+0

+0

+0

+1

+1

+2

+1

+1

+0

1-10/2-12

Hm. That would work yes, albeit not exactly what I had in mind, looking at the video above. I'm not searching for a "realistic" translation, mind you, I'm perfectly comfortable with AD&D's level of abstraction. I'm not sure considering it a variant of the halberd does it, though?

PS: given the lethality of the weapon demonstrated in the same video linked above (starting at 1:14, 2:20 for the combat technique based on Le Jeu de Hache), shouldn't there be some sort of specific bonus against plate armor?

[Benoist]

Direct link to the combat technique in the video.

[Matthew]

Hm. That would work yes, albeit not exactly what I had in mind, looking at the video above. I'm not searching for a "realistic" translation, mind you, I'm perfectly comfortable with AD&D's level of abstraction. I'm not sure considering it a variant of the halberd does it, though?

PS: given the lethality of the weapon demonstrated in the same video linked above (starting at 1:14, 2:20 for the combat technique based on Le Jeu de Hache), shouldn't there be some sort of specific bonus against plate armor?

Bearing in mind that in the last thirty or forty years opinions have changed on the effectiveness of weapons and armour, the best thing to do is match it up with the two-handed sword (the most effective armour busting weapon in the game) and decide how you want it to work by comparison. Personally, and in order to avoid the headaches, I just give all two-handed weapons a blanket +1 to hit and 1d12 damage, but not everybody is comfortable with that sort of white washing!

[Benoist]

I've got nothing against that interpretation. That already sounds a lot more like what I'm searching for.

Alternately, could it be treated as a variant of the Bec de Corbin, you think?

[francisca]

I've got nothing against that interpretation. That already sounds a lot more like what I'm searching for.

Alternately, could it be treated as a variant of the Bec de Corbin, you think?

Well, I think you need to decide which part of the head is most formidable. If you think it is the hack/slash from the axe-head, treat it like a halberd. If you think the hook and hammer technique is more appropriate, then you're looking at Bec de Corbin or Lucern Hammer type of stats, perhaps. The poleaxe in the video seems to be of similar length and mass as most Bec de Corbins and Lucerne Hammers I've seen.

I will point out, that in game terms, the halberd is heavier than either the Bec de Corbin or the Lucerne Hammer, and has a higher potential damage vs. S/M creatures, and a lot better vs. large creatures.

As a compromise, you might want to treat your poleaxe as 2-8 vs. S/M and, I dunno 1-10 or 1-12 vs. L creatures, and give it Bec de Corbin -ish modifiers vs. armor types.

[Benoist]

These are all great suggestions, francisca. I might just end up going for the compromise you outlined last.

[T. Foster]

If I were to stat up the pole axe for AD&D I'd take a look at Mythus (where it is included) to see how its stats (damage, speed, size, modifiers vs various armor types) compare to other similar weapons (halberd, lochaber axe, bec-de-corbin, etc.) and assign analogous AD&D stats based on that. That way I'd be confident I'd captured the intended "Gygaxian" flavor of the weapon even if it's not necessarily consistent with modern scholarship on the subject.

[Matthew]

It is hard to say what would be suitable from an "authentic" point of view, but as Francisca notes there are various game statistic considerations. One clue might be taken from Swords & Spells where it is noted that a bardiche backed with a hammer head gets a bonus versus armour classes 3, 2 and 1. Of course under that paradigm the halberd is better at overcoming armour than even the two-handed sword, suggesting that an axe/spear/fluted spike combination was deemed particularly effective, and the lucerne hammer/bec-de-corbin were only only one degree behind. Bottom line with this stuff is that you can probably justify almost anything with enough effort, which is why I fall back on +1/1d12 combination. One further consideration, though, is the difference between a "pole-axe" and a "pole-arm" (that is to say a short hafted pole-arm with an axe or hammer head and a longer pole-arm intended for use in several ranks). The halberd is able to fall into both categories.