Demons & Devils Gating in Others

[Dwayanu]

What are the limitations on this?

A pit fiend has a 70% chance to gate in another pit fiend. Five tries gives 99.757%. Let's call that close enough to 100%, and assume one (and only one) success per (unhurried) pit fiend per 5 minutes. After an hour, that's 2^12= 4096 pit fiends!

[T. Foster]

I've always assumed that you only get one try, succeed or fail, and after that can't do it again for some arbitrarily long period of time (say, a week or so). I realize that's not actually written in the books anywhere, and may well not be what was intended, but at least to me it's the only interpretation that stands up to any sort of scrutiny and doesn't ultimately lead to billions of demons and devils roaming around.

I also play it that any demon or devil who gates in help loses considerable face and probably incurs some sort of debt to the gatee, which, especially for devils, would be a strong disincentive against doing so except as a desperate last resort.

[Wheggi]

I also play it that any demon or devil who gates in help loses considerable face and probably incurs some sort of debt to the gatee, which, especially for devils, would be a strong disincentive against doing so except as a desperate last resort.

This. The price a creature from the lower planes would have to pay would be a huge deterrant. When dealing with the pure evil of Hell or the Abyss the last thing you want to do is show weakness.

- Wheggi

[Dwayanu]

The MM typically lists gating in after the note that [monsters of type X] "are able to perform any of the following at will, once per turn or melee round, as applicable".

I don't recall anything standing out to me as having "per turn" obviously applicable. Ruling that as the frequency for gating attempts at least slows it down. If you can't smack down whatever bunch there is or bug out in ten rounds, it might be like opening a Decanter of Endless Demons.

By the book, it still looks pretty crazy. I was hoping I had missed an official rule that clears this up.

As a house rule, though, I'm liking T. Foster's essentially "one shot" approach.

= = =

I'm not buying the "showing weakness" line as a panacea.

From the perspective of the Lords of Hell:

Yeah, if it came to weakening one's armies sufficiently, then that could be disastrous. Just how many demons or devils would that involve, though? I suppose the old "Politics of Hell" articles might have some answers.

I imagine there to be quite a bit of diversion possible, though, before reaching that point. Shouldn't there be plenty to give a typical PC party or three a run for the XP?

From the individual ("gating in") demon's perspective:

In the one case, there's nothing "weak" about inviting more monsters to wreak havoc when there's plenty of blood and souls to go around. A few hours' spree laying waste to some backwater, before the sword-n-spell equivalent of the Justice League of America shows up to crash the party, would seem to be just evil fun.

In the more stereotypical D&D situation, it's "show weakness" or push up daisies with no more cares about "saving face" or anything else.

I take for granted that, say, pit fiend B gated in by pit fiend A could -- depending on circumstances -- be pissed off and not only not help A but give A hell (you know what I mean) if A survives whatever it as at hand. There's also almost certainly some limit on how many barbed devils a pit fiend can requisition, but that would be above the barbed ones' own pay grade.

[MojoBob]

This applies specifically to my own campaigns; whether it has wider relevance is up to others:

Demons are unlikely to gate in any other demon they can't themselves dominate or control, for the simple reason that a demonic rival is unlikely to help (unless constrained to do so) and may actively aid in the downfall of their summoner.

Devils are unlikely to gate in a devil of equal or higher rank except as an absolute last resort, as the loss of face and obligation incurred would be intolerable.

Either are very likely to gate in demons or devils that they can dominate and command; it's no different from a human lord calling in the guards to deal with interlopers.

[Bargle]

Gate requires a true name. So I figure demons call in specific favors. If the other demon doesn't respond (busy perhaps, or spiteful...) then that's that. No more tries.

[Dwayanu]

Either are very likely to gate in demons or devils that they can dominate and command; it's no different from a human lord calling in the guards to deal with interlopers.

If we include gating in devils that the boss can command -- without which, the barbed devil's ability to call in other barbed devils is probably moot -- then we're back to the doubling-time problem.

1. Pit fiend summons 2 barbed devils.
2. Pit fiend summons 2 barbed devils, while first 2 barbed devils summon 2 more.
3. Pit fiend summons 2 barbed devils, while first 6 summon 6 more.
4. Pit fiend summons 2 barbed devils, while first 14 summon 14 more.
5. Pit fiend summons 2 barbed devils, while first 30 summon 30 more.
6. Pit fiend summons 2 barbed devils, while first 62 summon 62 more.
7. Pit fiend summons 2 barbed devils, while first 126 summon 126 more.

The big question is whether the pit fiend has 254 barbed devils at its disposal. It will just take longer to reach that limit if it has to do all the work of bringing them in 2 at a time by itself while its subordinates take a long tea break.

[ScottyG]

I don't have summoned monsters summon additional monsters, and the original creature encountered get's one attempt to summon per encounter. If multiple creature types are possible, it would be one attempt per creature type. And for reasons already mentioned, it's not always an option the encountered creature is eager to try.

[AxeMental]

I don't have summoned monsters summon additional monsters, and the original creature encountered get's one attempt to summon per encounter. If multiple creature types are possible, it would be one attempt per creature type. And for reasons already mentioned, it's not always an option the encountered creature is eager to try.

This is how most people seem to do it. But per the MM every summoned creature should also get the chance to summon. I think the intention here by EGG was to allow maximum latitude for the DM (ie. I don't get the impression this was an over site, I think a high level PC group could deal with demons bringing in more and more as written).

What makes this entire summoning problematic is that almost all of the demons and devils have a good chance at it, and its difficult to write the encounter (in a balanced way) "Gee, I'd like to include x, but they get to summon at 70% which that "might" be overpowering, so maybe I'll use y instead, but thats too weak...well maybe I'll use x afterall and just make up some reason why they can't summon, or maybe I'll say it won't try to summon unless it gets to 10 HPs, but why would it do that, am I underpowering the monster....fuuuuuck that. Also, it can tend to ruin the impact of the monster type too (think the movie Alien -bad ass scary individual vs Aliens -a bunch of ants with no personality). Demons and devils are supposed to be scary bastards, not something to dread because of "oh wait, here pops in another one". Honestly, the mental imagery isn't always appropriate either for an encounter.


Personally, I don't use summoning much for demons and devils unless its written in. Its a cool thing, but after the first few times it looses its novelty and its just a dread for everyone involved ("Jesus when is this fucking battle going to be over" is not what you want to hear from your players who have to deal with...one....more....pit fiend gating in at the last minute).

When you think about it, Dragons and Demons/Devils really got the shaft in some ways. This gating thing is one of them (just confusing as hell, unworkable really, and almost a guaranteed house overrule -and the DM never really satisfide with it).

[Falconer]

There’s a really cool scene at the end of Sea of Death, IIRC, where demons keep gating in more demons keep gating in more demons. I have tried to go for that, so it’s always a race for the players to kill what demons they’re facing (or at least interrupt their spells).

[AxeMental]

There’s a really cool scene at the end of Sea of Death, IIRC, where demons keep gating in more demons keep gating in more demons. I have tried to go for that, so it’s always a race for the players to kill what demons they’re facing (or at least interrupt their spells).

I think thats the one Gord book I haven't read. Thats interesting, suggests thats kinda what Gygax intended.

[Dwayanu]

Gate requires a true name.

I do not see that rule in either the PHB or the DMG, even for humans literally casting the spell.

It also goes against what I have read was the origin of 'Yeenoghu'.

At any rate, I reckon a demon should be able to open gates for other demons whilst knowing but their common names. As far as the MM goes, it could just be a matter of calling, "Hey, rube!".

[Dwayanu]

There’s a really cool scene at the end of Sea of Death, IIRC, where demons keep gating in more demons keep gating in more demons. I have tried to go for that, so it’s always a race for the players to kill what demons they’re facing (or at least interrupt their spells).

I think thats the one Gord book I haven't read. Thats interesting, suggests thats kinda what Gygax intended.

I seem to recall his having said that the stories were not to be taken as evidence like that, but I agree it is a tempting inference.

That leaves the basic problem, though, of why demons and devils have not already overrun Greyhawk. Any answer to that in the Gord books?

[Dwayanu]

What makes this entire summoning problematic is that almost all of the demons and devils have a good chance at it, and its difficult to write the encounter (in a balanced way)...

What makes it really problematic is the need for the assumption that demons and devils give a shit about doing things only in 'encounters'. If I wanted a game like that, then I could play '4e'.

[T. Foster]

There’s a really cool scene at the end of Sea of Death, IIRC, where demons keep gating in more demons keep gating in more demons. I have tried to go for that, so it’s always a race for the players to kill what demons they’re facing (or at least interrupt their spells).

I think thats the one Gord book I haven't read. Thats interesting, suggests thats kinda what Gygax intended.

IIRC (and it's been well over 20 years since I read the book so I might not) that was a major battle with significant cosmic implications (over control of the final section of the key that would free a major evil god from captivity) so it was definitely a special case and not something to extrapolate from for any and every encounter with demons -- as a contrasting example there's also a battle against a demon at the end of Saga of Old City in which the demon does not gate in help.

So while this example does seem to support Gygax's intent that gated demons could in turn gate in even more demons (I can't tell from Falconer's description if it also has the same demon repeatedly gating in other demons or only performing the maneuver once each), it doesn't mean it's something they will do under ordinary circumstances -- that every encounter with one demon is inevitably going to end up as an encounter with a dozen or more, or that demons can't ever be placed in dungeons without having to provide an explanation for why it hasn't gated in thousands (or even millions) of friends by the time the PCs encounter it.