Intiative has nothing to do with Movement

[Solinor]

Does anyone have a reference in the DMG or PHB that can tell me different? I have drawn this conclusion and am wondering if I am wrong.

[ScottyG]

pH p. 104 "Actions affected by initiative are many and include... moving to grapple or melee..."

[Solinor]

Thanks Scotty.

Interesting that it makes that reference but I don't think it actually means anything mechanically BtB. With stating intentions at the beginning of the round you know already whether or not you are close enough to attack someone. If any movement occurs it occurs simultaneously. So if two opponents are moving at each other they meet in the middle of their starting points.
So my point being if you win initiative it doesn't mean you move first, it only means you strike first. You get to move 1/10th your movement per segment and so does your opponent, regardless of what they rolled on their initiative.

Here is one of the reasons I bring this up.

DM: you see a mummy in a room lying on a stone coffin, The mummy begins to sit up.
Me: I run.
DM: roll initiative (I think to myself why?)
Me: I lose initiative
DM: Mummy attacks you

So in my mind time freezes for my character as I stand their stupidly(instead of running like I had stated), waiting for the mummy to cover the distance of the room and strike me. If you play like this what version of D&D are you playing? Mechanics aside common sense and a little thought could tell how this would play out if I have control of my character.

Now some may say with the abstract nature of the game who knows what actually happened there, maybe you tripped and the mummy caught up to you. Okay, if I think about it that way it means that any idea I come up with, no matter how simple or good, has a 50/50 chance of success or failure. I don't think those are very good odds and my choice to immediately state that I run has no reward, and player skill and decision making account for nothing.

People can fall back on the abstract argument but I rarely see players very happy when they abstractly get their asses handed to them. The beauty of AD&D is it can handle getting specific in situations like this if desired.

[ScottyG]

It could go either way, initiative being a factor, or not in almost any situation. Too many variables.
In your mummy example, I wouldn't make you roll initiative. Since the mummy was prone, I'd make it spend a round getting up.

[T. Foster]

I'd probably handle the mummy example with a surprise check. Otherwise I'd say it automatically loses initiative getting out of the coffin (which nicely sidesteps the issue). As to the larger question, I don't normally track segments unless it's specifically relevant, so how far a character has moved before an action that occurs on segment 3 doesn't usually come up, but when it does (most often a character trying to move under cover or out of range/AOE before a spell goes off) I always assume the character starts moving on segment 1, regardless of initiative.

[ScottyG]

Now imagine the PC, the mummy, and a door arranged in a, roughly, 45 degree angle with the door as the vertex.
The PC wants to run through the door, the mummy wants to block the door. They’re both about 20’ away from the door. How would you run it?

[T. Foster]

Now imagine the PC, the mummy, and a door arranged in a, roughly, 45 degree angle with the door as the vertex.
The PC wants to run through the door, the mummy wants to block the door. They’re both about 20’ away from the door. How would you run it?

If the mummy has to climb out of the coffin first it loses (unless the PC is encumbered or slowed or something, in which case I decide how many segments it'll take the mummy to climb out and how far the character has moved in that time). Assuming the mummy is already out of the coffin I compare move rates -- whoever is faster wins. If they've got the same move rate then the initiative roll determines who gets there first, but the loser is less than a segment behind.

[Bargle]

This comports with the rules for charging as well--which is unmoored from initiative except as it pertains to the option to parlay before even movement begins.

d&d initiative is a blend and additions to the two initiatives of chainmail. First the mass combat initiative of d6 high roll first, followed by order of battle, move, melee etc. And the man to man rules which start with the d6 high roll wins--but this only determines who the attacker and who the defender is, and when things happen are influenced by weapon speed and actions performed etc.

Basic d&d uses the mass chat rules alone, ad&d includes the more complex system of man to man which was then expanded, first in supplement II, and then in ad&d.

[achijusan]

additionally...

seeing as how a mummy only has a 6" movement rate...

seems to me the only time anyone would ever have to melee one is if they are HEAVILY encumbered, trapped in a corner, or surprised.


but as for beating an average PC in a race to the door ?

I just dont see it happening.

I do agree that If the PC isnt surprised then the prone mummy has no chance of catching him before he about-faces and hauls a$$ down the passageway.

[jallison86]

additionally...

seeing as how a mummy only has a 6" movement rate...

seems to me the only time anyone would ever have to melee one is if they are HEAVILY encumbered, trapped in a corner, or surprised.


but as for beating an average PC in a race to the door ?

I just dont see it happening.

I do agree that If the PC isnt surprised then the prone mummy has no chance of catching him before he about-faces and hauls a$$ down the passageway.

And this is a hallmark of good play -- realizing that you are up against a slow monster and using that to your advantage. Increase the distance, then engage with ranged weapons and/or spells. Repeat as needed. Now intelligent opponents aren't going to stand there and get killed from a distance, but for slow, mindless opponents like zombies this is the ideal way to beat them. Players often forget this, however, and rush into melee

- Jeff

[achijusan]

You are so right !

All to often I see players forget the better part of valor... and pay dearly for doing so.

even the awesome and deadly clay golem discussed in another thread here only has a movement of 70 feet per round...

and are generally easily evaded (unless you happen to be trapped in the room with it, of course! )

[Solinor]

Now imagine the PC, the mummy, and a door arranged in a, roughly, 45 degree angle with the door as the vertex.
The PC wants to run through the door, the mummy wants to block the door. They’re both about 20’ away from the door. How would you run it?

If the mummy has to climb out of the coffin first it loses (unless the PC is encumbered or slowed or something, in which case I decide how many segments it'll take the mummy to climb out and how far the character has moved in that time). Assuming the mummy is already out of the coffin I compare move rates -- whoever is faster wins. If they've got the same move rate then the initiative roll determines who gets there first, but the loser is less than a segment behind.

This is how I thought about it.

[AxeMental]

When one party interacts with another party I go to initiative (though it is still brought to real time even before an action takes place) this can be at a distance (such as spying).

Movements are assumed to be fluid and occur simultaneously (between side A and side B), while initiative simply describes which side gets his action started and possibly completed first. In the above mummy example the abstraction of combat alone isn't something you'd want to say caused a person to fail to move such as a slip (that would probably be a savings throw, and there would need to be conditions that would make one slip). As DM you have to look at movement rates, conditions, and consider if opponents are in attack range and what effect that will have on moving freely (for example, once in melee range movement out of range results in a free attack and sometimes isn't possible, also difficult would be moving threw an opponents sphere of attack (assuming the opponent isn't totally distracted).

Movement within combat is something that isn't very cut and dry. Its definitely part of the abstraction process of initiative (as you suggest), its subject to the DMs judgement, and careful explanation by the player. For instance, Just how much time does it take to grab that fallen magical sword 10 feet away with 3 goblins coming at you (and is it even possible) is something the DM will have to call at the time. That element of not knowing how the DM will react is part of the non-gamey element of the game (not being able to hedge your bets to the umpteenth degree and to know the exact timing makes it feel alot like real life.

If you've played 3E you will see alot of that movement variability is adjudicated by the rules (rather then the DM or chance), which presents what would realistically be an impossible array of circumstances as a game move thats far too predictable to emulate real life.

[francisca]

Players often forget this, however, and rush into melee

- Jeff

Likewise, players and DMs* often forget that the PCs are often wearing armor and carrying loot, which will restrict their movement to 6", sometimes as low as 3".

*: well, me for one.

[Terrex]

Players often forget this, however, and rush into melee

- Jeff

Likewise, players and DMs* often forget that the PCs are often wearing armor and carrying loot, which will restrict their movement to 6", sometimes as low as 3".

*: well, me for one.

I've been adding btb encumbrance to my campaign over the last two years. It has been a tradeoff at times (nobody really likes to do even a little bookkeeping during the session). But, overall, it has increased the quality of game play.