Where do you come down on cleric combos using edged weapons?

[T. Foster]

Just to get back to the original question, Axe also asked about cleric/thieves. And no, btb, there is no reason to think cleric/thieves can use edged weapons. Personally I think that they're restricted to clubs (which is the only place where the cleric and thief weapon tables intersect, iirc).

Whereas I'm convinced it was an editorial oversight (probably because there weren't any characters with that combo in actual play at the time the book was being written), and that cleric/thieves, cleric/assassins, and cleric/magic-users can also use any and all weapons available to either class. I don't have the book in front of me to check, but ISTR a general statement somewhere about multi-classed characters getting all weapon and armor benefits of all their classes, with the thief armor restriction cited as the exception (and of course UA even lifted that, so long as you didn't mind taking massive penalties on the thief skills).

[grodog]

Yes, there is:

Note that non-human and semi-human race characters who are multi-classed are typically bound by the limitations of the thief class only. That is, a fighter/magic-user can benefit from both armor, weaponry and spells; a fighter/thief is limited by the constraints of the thief class.

and while less clear, the implications from the two quotations below suggest (to me) that weaponry is freely mixable between classes:

Fighter/thief: By combining these two classes- the armor, weapons, and combat capabilities of the fighter with the stealth and other abilities of the thief - a very effective character is created, even though thieving functions restrict the character to leather armor and no shield. Hit points are good. Dwarves, elves, gnomes, half-elves, halflings, and half-orcs may be fighter/thieves.

and

Cleric/thief: This is a combination of classes which gives both defensive and stealth potential. Hit points are improved with regard to the thief class only. As with all thief class combinations, however, any functions as a thief are under the restrictions of that class with regard to armor, i.e. only leather armor and no shield. Half-orcs may be cleric/thieves.

I cited these with Jon and he said "Waaah" in response

[PapersAndPaychecks]

... as, indeed, would I -- in the case of a cleric/thief. Or a cleric/mage, who IMC are restricted to weapons both classes can use (i.e. staff).

But I'd see a cleric/fighter or cleric/assassin as a martial character with unrestricted weapon choice.

[rogatny]

It is also possible for a half-orc character to operate in two classes at the same time: cleric/fighter, cleric/thief, cleric/assassin, fighter/thief, or fighter/assassin. When playing a multi-classed character, the half-orc must abide by the restrictions of the least favorable class with regard only to armor.

I read this to mean that the half-orc cleric/assassin and cleric/thief can use any weapon allowed by the thief or assassin classes.

As far as other cleric combos, that only leaves...

Half-elf and Half-orc Cleric/Fighters, Half-elf Cleric Fighter/Magic-Users, and Half-elf Cleric/Rangers, all of which specifically "may use edged weapons" per page 32 of the PHB. Presumably this means that any weapon open to the fighter types is open to the cleric multi-class.

Half-elf Cleric/Magic-Users, which per page 32, can use a "great variety and selection of spells, as well as the use of armor and more weapons." Presumably, this means the character can use the weapons allowed by both classes.

Those are the entirety of legal PHB cleric mulit-classes, and by my reading, every single one of them can use the weapons of both the cleric class and the other class.

[AxeMental]

Its important to remember that the human with two classes (dual) does not get the benefits of the demihuman multi-class (for instance a F/MU, the elf can use armor the human cannot). Not sure if I totally understand this.

So do you guys agree with this:

Dual Class (human)
Cleric - restricted to cleric
Cleric Thief - restricted to club per P&P (or to all thief and cleric weapons) leather
Cleric Fighter - can use all cleric and fighter weapons
Cleric MU - Cannot use Cleric weapons (no armor)
Cleric Ranger - Same as C/F
Cleric Assassin - Same as C/T (leather only, unless in disguise wearing heavy armor)
Cleric Paladin - Same as C/F (if is even allowed, can't remember?)

Multi Class (Demi-humans)
Cleric - Restricted to cleric (no bows or swords even if race prof)
Cleric Thief - can use weapons of both (also race weapons) (leather only)
Cleric Fighter -both (also race weapons)
Cleric MU - both (no race weapons swords or bows) (Can wear all armor including plate)
Cleric Ranger - same as C/F
Cleric Assassin - both

[geneweigel]

These kinds of conversations drive me nuts. You still have to take off your armor to cast spells but not for magic-items for magic-users ONCE you've attained equilateral levels that is.

It's perfectly simple.
If you're not getting your hair cut,
you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower peg.
You simply collect his note before lunch,
after you've done your scripture prep,
when you've written your letter home,
before rest,
move your own clothes onto the lower peg,
greet the visitors,
and report to Mr. Viney that you've had your chit signed.

Seriously, this was just the rule no magic-user spellcasting in armor for anybody. Magic items sure.

[Juju EyeBall]

It's perfectly simple.
If you're not getting your hair cut,
you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower peg.
You simply collect his note before lunch,
after you've done your scripture prep,
when you've written your letter home,
before rest,
move your own clothes onto the lower peg,
greet the visitors,
and report to Mr. Viney that you've had your chit signed.

If you don't eat your meat how can you have any pudding?

[achijusan]

by the book;

All multiclass characters always use the least restrictive weapon list of all their component classes.

SO..

Cleric /Magic Users can use all permitted cleric and magic user weapons
Cleric/Fighters can use all permitted cleric and fighter weapons
Cleric/Assassins can use all permitted cleric and assassin weapons...

etc etc.

Deviations from the "by the book" rules are IMO better addessed in the homebrew AD&D thread

[PapersAndPaychecks]

If you don't eat your meat how can you have any pudding?

[achijusan]

Just to get back to the original question, Axe also asked about cleric/thieves. And no, btb, there is no reason to think cleric/thieves can use edged weapons. Personally I think that they're restricted to clubs (which is the only place where the cleric and thief weapon tables intersect, iirc).

... as, indeed, would I -- in the case of a cleric/thief. Or a cleric/mage, who IMC are restricted to weapons both classes can use (i.e. staff).

But I'd see a cleric/fighter or cleric/assassin as a martial character with unrestricted weapon choice.

PHB page 17:
Under Half Elves:
"Half elven characters who choose the cleric as one of their multi-classesaren't limited by that classes proscriptions upon weapons usable

and

PHB page 17
Under Half-Orcs:
"When playing a multi-classed character, the half orc must abide by the restrictions of the least favorable class with regard only to armor.

seems quite evidently clear that both half elf and half orc cleric/thieves can use all the thieves weapons without restriction.

And Half-Elf Cleric/Magic users can use all the magic users weapons

For further evidence; simply look at some of the multiclass pregenerated characters in many 1E modules and observe what weapons they are carrying.

[T. Foster]

seems quite evidently clear that both half elf and half orc cleric/thieves can use all the thieves weapons without restriction.

While we're nitpicking, let's note that per both PH p. 17 and PH p. 32 only half-orcs, not half-elves, can be cleric/thieves

[achijusan]

seems quite evidently clear that both half elf and half orc cleric/thieves can use all the thieves weapons without restriction.

While we're nitpicking, let's note that per both PH p. 17 and PH p. 32 only half-orcs, not half-elves, can be cleric/thieves

While we are nitpicking; take a look at all the races allowed to be cleric thieves in the official UA errata

see here:
http://www.acaeum.com/library/errata_ua.html

cleric thieves include Hill Dwarfs, All varieties of elves, gnomes, halflings, and half orcs.

If you are a "PHB only" purist you may change my original post to read: "seems quite evidently clear that both half elf magic user/thieves and half orc cleric/thieves can use all the thieves weapons without restriction. "

In any event; the point is that cleric multiclasses are not limited to cleric weapons... BTB that is.

As always; individual DMs can always invoke whatever house rules they feel appropriate (regardless of their player's desires or rulebook quoting)

[achijusan]

Its important to remember that the human with two classes (dual) does not get the benefits of the demihuman multi-class (for instance a F/MU, the elf can use armor the human cannot). Not sure if I totally understand this.

So do you guys agree with this:

Dual Class (human)
Cleric - restricted to cleric
yes

Cleric Thief - restricted to club per P&P (or to all thief and cleric weapons) leather
nope - cleric thief can use all cleric and thief weapons; and wear any armor when not using thief skills - see the example on PHB page 33 where the human dual class fighter/magic user can carry (but not wear) armor and weapons not normally usable by the magic user class, and resort to their use if the need arises. the human f/mu is unable to cast spells while armor clad.

Cleric Fighter - can use all cleric and fighter weapons
yes

Cleric MU - Cannot use Cleric weapons (no armor)
nope, can carry cleric weapons and bring along armor see example for cleric/thief above; cannot cast MU spells if armored

Cleric Ranger - Same as C/F
yes

Cleric Assassin - Same as C/T (leather only, unless in disguise wearing heavy armor)
nope, see example for cleric/thief above

Cleric Paladin - Same as C/F (if is even allowed, can't remember?)
yes

Multi Class (Demi-humans)
Cleric - Restricted to cleric (no bows or swords even if race prof)
yes

..but might possibly house rule an exception for clerics using the weapon their racial diety (if also the cleric's personal diety) is famous for... Gruumsh and spear, Corellon Larethian and Longsword/longbow, Frey and two-handed sword; etc...

Cleric Thief - can use weapons of both (also race weapons) (leather only)
not exactly; can wear any armor if not using any thief skills

Cleric Fighter -both (also race weapons)
yes

Cleric MU - both (no race weapons swords or bows) (Can wear all armor including plate)
yes

Cleric Ranger - same as C/F
yes

Cleric Assassin - both
yes

Dual class humans are quite a bit trickier than multiclasses... just take a look at this sage advice article from Dragon #64

In essence, being a character with two classes means you can do different things at different times, which makes “double duty” desirable for some players and their characters. But twoclassed characters (always human) can’t legitimately mix the abilities and benefits of different classes at the same time the way multi-classed (always non-human or semi-human) characters can. Like it says on page 33 of the Players Handbook, “restrictions regarding armor, shield, and/or weapon apply with regard to operations particular to one or both classes.” From that statement, and the example that follows it concerning a two-classed fighter and magic-user, we can see that the intent of the rules is to keep the class functions separate. The result is that a twoclassed character must be played quite a bit differently than a multi-classed character who is practicing the same professions. A fighter-cleric wielding an edged weapon can’t successfully cast a spell, turn an undead, or perform any other cleric-type action. If the character wants to be able to hold a weapon and act as a cleric at the same time, it must be a weapon clerics are permitted to use. A fighter-MU can “carry (but not wear) armor and weapons not normally usable by magic-users,” according to the Players Handbook. Thus, a two-classed fighter-cleric ought to be allowed to carry (but not hold) an edged weapon and still use clerical abilities: It would be okay for the two-classed fighter-cleric to keep a sword at his belt and turn an undead, for instance— but if he tries to do the same thing with a sword in one hand and a holy symbol in the other, he’d better be ready to use that sword. A fighter-cleric carrying more than one weapon but not holding any particular one at a given time can perform as a cleric as long as one of the weapons he carries is permitted to clerics, and as long as that particular weapon is the one (if any) being drawn or wielded.

[AxeMental]

Q: Cleric Thief - restricted to club per P&P (or to all thief and cleric weapons) leather
nope - cleric thief can use all cleric and thief weapons; and wear any armor when not using thief skills

This is true for any class. An MU that wants to put on a suite of chain may do so as long as he's not casting spells. I'm not sure I'd allow one to fight without a penalty though...that chain would seem pretty heavy to these bookworms.

My point was, to function as both at the same time (say in the same battle sneaking around and casting) they would need to be wearing leather or no armor.

Q: But twoclassed characters (always human) can’t legitimately mix the abilities and benefits of different classes at the same time the way multi-classed (always non-human or semi-human) characters can.

I disagree with this. A cleric fighter can mix the ability and benefits of two classes at the same time (in the same battle) in exactly the way a multi-class can.

[achijusan]

Q: Cleric Thief - restricted to club per P&P (or to all thief and cleric weapons) leather
nope - cleric thief can use all cleric and thief weapons; and wear any armor when not using thief skills

This is true for any class. An MU that wants to put on a suite of chain may do so as long as he's not casting spells. I'm not sure I'd allow one to fight without a penalty though...that chain would seem pretty heavy to these bookworms.

My point was, to function as both at the same time (say in the same battle sneaking around and casting) they would need to be wearing leather or no armor.

Exactly

Unless of course you use the UA official errata rules that give the various penalties for thief abilities wearing armor heavier than leather...

presented here:
http://www.acaeum.com/library/errata_ua.html