Maps and Characters

[Chainsaw]

Generally speaking, if the PC with the map loses the map somehow or doesn't show, then the full and detailed map is not accessible, however, crude pieces might be, assuming the PCs have mapping equipment and depending on the context - where the PCs are when the map becomes unavailable (in town? in dungeon?), how involved and complex was the mapped area, how recently and frequently had the PCs been to various areas, how distracted were they when they were there, etc etc etc. I would feel free to remind them that it's unlikely they were really paying as much attention as the mapper rather than watching for eyes in the darkness, listening for noises, trying not to be loud, etc. No hard and fast rule for me.

In capitalbill's game, our PCs have been through some areas in level one a dozen or fifteen times (a certain route to level two, for example). If the map were lost, I might allow a copy of this route to be recreated. We've been through other areas only once and many sessions ago. These wouldn't be available in any form. If the map were destroyed in random room X, I would probably allow the immediately preceding few rooms/passages to be recreated, as the PCs had JUST been there. Again, no hard and fast rule.

Edit: One hard and fast rule, I guess - the PCs HAVE to have a scroll/quill or chalk/board or whatever is needed to map, just as they have to have a weapons, armor, memorized spells, etc if they want to be effective in combat.

[AxeMental]

Q: "There are maps and then there are maps. Sure, a multi-level megadungeon map with 3-4 dozen rooms per level - it makes sense to take it away if the in-game artifact is destroyed. But smaller locations, "lairs", if you will, those are a different matter. Those shouldn't be considered in-game artifacts as much as an abstract way to represent the PCs' memory."

Its unlikely the PCs will know if they are entering a lair or something bigger, so logically I think most would start mapping it. If you've ever gone caving (or in my case exploring underground water drainage systems under the city I grew up in when I was a kid) you quickly learn the necessity of making a map. As P&P says, a map is a physical object in game (its always assumed to exist, even if the DM doesn't make a fuss about it, as I rarely do...which isn't a good thing, just laziness). If your players say they don't want to make one, and have a good memory let them try. I do draw things as I go however, and if they aren't keeping a map they are free to make a flow chart themselves. Also, if there in a city and I'm trying to express what they see, I draw it out (but only the parts they see). Anyway, the act of drawing maps in D&D is part of its earliest traditions, and exist not only for its richness, and sense of realism, but also to keep the players engaged and perhaps to slow things down (remembering to describe all the little noises, smells and puddles etc.). Even the best DM rushes now and then, which isn't really great imagery. A lost map would be bad news, so copies (spread between several) are always a good idea.

P&P was slate something used in RL or something? Wouldn't that wash off quickly, and be like using a giant crayon, where you'd use the space up quickly. I'd splurge for paper and a map case (unless dirt pore) or send a thief to steal some.

I think there'd be a good number of alternatives to slate. Paint on a spare shield, a flat piece of wood, etc.

[Falconer]

Before running The Abduction of Good King Despot a few weekends ago, I reminded my players that the rules suggest the caller AND the mapper EACH make maps. I also forewarned them that maps destroyed IC would be confiscated OOC. Well, when Europa hit them with a fireball, the caller failed his save and failed his item save. He died (he was raised soon after), and when he turned his map over to me I ripped it to shreds in front of them all!

Luckily, the other map survived. The caller and another player copied it as far as it had gone, and for the rest of the weekend we had three mappers going! (Out of nine players.) Of course, it is a particularly fun dungeon to map. But the point is I have often experienced the players rallying—thinking harder, working harder, and earning their triumphs ergo having more fun—after a defeat. One of the first sessions I ever refereed was a TPK against giant rats in the kobold cave in B2 at about 1:00 a.m. Depression lasted about five seconds before they rolled up new characters and went back and kicked some ass. I think they still remember that as the best session ever.

It just goes to show you, you can call it “hard-ass DMing”, but I call it adjudicating fairly according to the rulebooks, and a challenge is meat and drink to players. Regards.

[Flambeaux]

I've never had players who mapped. So I've never dealt with this as a DM.

If a DM took a map I'd made and tore it to shreds, I'd beat his ass and walk out.

ETA: It's a game. I don't find that level of "verisimilitude" enjoyable. And I really don't like DMs who act like pricks and call it "challenge".

[Chainsaw]

I could see a DM saying, "Let me keep this until further notice, so you can't copy it at home," but not ripping it up. I guess it depends on your mapper. Some guys maybe create total shit and don't care because it's just a doodled flowchart smeared with Dorito stains. Maybe they would even think it was funny. Our group's mapper is pretty artistic and takes some pride in creating a cool, useful map - he might want to keep it as a campaign memento. Not sure I could rip up something like that without ruining a friendship.

[Falconer]

His map was crude unlike the mapper’s fair map—which I wouldn’t have ripped up if it were “destroyed”, okay? I gave fair warning, made a dramatic scene about it, and it was taken in good humor. For what it’s worth, the caller and I are really close friends. We went to school together, groomsmen at each others’ weddings, etc. My whole group is tight like that. I’ve DM’d for them for many years, and they tell me I’m the “best DM ever”. The ripped-up map is now a memorable scene to them, and it was hilarious at the time.

Thank God I don’t play with players who would react to a game by physically attacking me and calling me a prick.

And who map. I have a question for you “My players have never mapped” types. Say it’s Session #13 of a game of The Temple of Elemental Evil. How do your players know where they have and haven’t explored? How do they describe where they go next? I’m not putting you down, I just honestly can’t understand how that would work.

[Flambeaux]

His map was crude unlike the mapper’s fair map—which I wouldn’t have ripped up if it were “destroyed”, okay? I gave fair warning, made a dramatic scene about it, and it was taken in good humor. For what it’s worth, the caller and I are really close friends. We went to school together, groomsmen at each others’ weddings, etc. My whole group is tight like that. I’ve DM’d for them for many years, and they tell me I’m the “best DM ever”. The ripped-up map is now a memorable scene to them, and it was hilarious at the time.

Glad someone enjoyed it.

Thank God I don’t play with players who would react to a game by physically attacking me and calling me a prick.

And I'm glad I don't play with DM's who think destroying stuff is funny.

And who map. I have a question for you “My players have never mapped” types. Say it’s Session #13 of a game of The Temple of Elemental Evil. How do your players know where they have and haven’t explored? How do they describe where they go next? I’m not putting you down, I just honestly can’t understand how that would work.

No clue. I don't understand how it would work, either. And it's not just inexperienced gamers I have who don't map. It's experienced ones I've played with, too. I don't get it.

Mapping is one of the few things I do well. As such its something I take seriously, as grodog, tacojohn, Chainsaw, Dungeon Dork, and a few others know.

I don't know that I've ever scratched a shitty map out on scrap paper as a player.

[Chainsaw]

If everyone buys in, that's all that matters, Falc -

[Wheggi]

I've never had players who mapped. So I've never dealt with this as a DM.

If a DM took a map I'd made and tore it to shreds, I'd beat his ass and walk out.

Oh give me a fucking break.

- Wheggi

[PatW]

I've only got the one player mapping, for the first time ever in decades, so the notion of multiple mapping players is unrealistic. That said, in-game I will allow the players to state they are making copies of the map, and note who has what copy. A photocopier might help with that between sessions...

I'll let my players know at the next session that there will be a certain amount of map discipline expected, so nobody is surprised if maps disappear. They are already quite impressed at my 3d6-in-order requirements for character stats, this will surely cement my legend as a hard-core old-school DM

[TRP]

If I had a map that I spent a great deal of time creating, and took pride in it as a player, then yes, I'd be damned pissed if the DM tore it up. No, there wouldn't be any ass kickings or big drama scene, but you'd best be sure that's the last time I played at that table.

Now, if I made a chicken scratch map and it got torn up, then I wouldn't care.

From my very first AD&D game as a player, the DM tore the map in two that I'd spent a year creating, and I put a lot of effort into it. It was as accurate as I could make it, and greatly annotated. It was the last night of the campaign, and now, I can't remember why I didn't ask for the map back. I don't even remember if he kept it or threw it away.

/me makes note. Don't put much effort into map making in a Falconer game.

[Falconer]

OMG!

It has only happened once in all the years I've DM'd!
It's by the book!
It was a crap map and early on in the dungeon!
I did it with players I was very comfortable with!
They thought it was hilarious!

You know, forget it, I guess since I have this reputation now, I might as well start showing up at cons, going from table to table destroying lovingly-crafted maps while peoples' backs are turned. Might as well throw my hat into the Internet Tough Guy contest while I'm at it. Muwahahahahaha....

[PapersAndPaychecks]

P&P was slate something used in RL or something?

Sure.

Paper wasn't used much, in dark age or mediaeval times, because of the various difficulties with bleaching wood pulp and the general complexity of the manufacturing process. Cheap paper is a product of the industrial revolution. Papyrus is noticeably easier to make by hand, but generally the best bet for making something like a book was vellum.

Slate, on the other hand, is free, easy, re-usable, can be written on with another kind of free material (chalk), and compared to paper, is very durable indeed.

As an alternative medieval monks would take notes on a wax tablet with a stylus, or a pagan runemaster might carve runes into a stone, a blade, a piece of bone or antler, or a piece of wood. Quite possibly they would also have used paint.

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I have a question for you “My players have never mapped” types. Say it’s Session #13 of a game of The Temple of Elemental Evil. How do your players know where they have and haven’t explored? How do they describe where they go next? I’m not putting you down, I just honestly can’t understand how that would work.

Session 1:- "We follow the left hand wall."

Session 2:- "We follow the left hand wall until we reach the place we were at last time."

... etc. Only a teleporter that they don't know about, or an illusion of some kind, will prevent them using this tactic.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect here about the purpose, and complexity, of the players' map. At its simplest it's not necessary for the players to map, if they're not interested in the organisation of the dungeon and the location of rooms relative to one another. Unless they're unusually stupid, or unless the dungeon is for some reason changing after they've left each room, they'll be able to find their way out again by retracing their steps. They'll have left a trail of dead monsters and looted treasure piles behind them, after all.

A "trailing map" is a way for the players to represent where they've been and find their way out again, and I think there's room for honest debate about whether such a map is a physical in-game object or not (although my position is that it is).

But there's also the kind of map that I think Flambeaux is talking about, where a player is seriously trying to reproduce the GM's map on their own piece of paper. It seems to me that the only purpose of such an exercise is to try to find secret rooms or hidden areas. It also seems self-evident to me that a detailed map of this kind is a physical in-game object produced by characters who physically measure or pace out distances and record the dimensions and orientation of each place as they go. It doesn't seem controversial to me that such a map could be lost as a result of an in-game event.

Perhaps it's the mild-mannered Englishman in me, but I would see it as excessively destructive to tear up such a map before the players' faces. I would see temporary confiscation as justified but I couldn't advocate actually destroying it.

[Vlospiress]

Sometimes a player has to write things down, make maps etc as an aid to memory, as we are not actually living in the dungeon for a week or so we might need to make a note of where things are relative to one another to avoid any silly mistakes.
The notes and maps a player makes are sacrosanct and not the property of the DM and i would be most upset if I wasn't allowed to make notes, maps etc for my own personal use.