What MUST you include to be considered playing 1E AD&D

[Juju EyeBall]

Friar Tuck, kickin' ass and brewin' medicinal beer.

also THIS

[crub90706]

Cleric conversion rules? Wern't they introducedin UA? Never used them.

What I don't like is the "priest as heal pump" for one, but the big one is the "must convert the other players to the minutiae of a specific polytheistic sphere of control that is antagonistic".

While I like the cleric class as such in Gygaxian D&D, I hate the two things you mention here.

First of all, if there is a pantheon in a given campaign, then the clerics of the different gods in the pantheon wouldn't be trying to get people to worship Pantheon Member A instead of Pantheon Member B. Everybody who believes in the pantheon would worship every god in the pantheon. If you were going on a long sea voyage, you would begin it with a sacrifice to the Sea God. If a loved one died, you'd sacrifice to the God of the Dead. If you wanted a woman, you'd sacrifice to the Goddess of Erotic Love. Etc. It all depends on your circumstances. Polytheism doesn't have One God for All Occasions. That's why it is polytheism.

As for the cleric regarded as a "medic" (which I can't stand), the best thing for the cleric to do is not memorize the healing spells. Only a small percentage of cleric spells are healing spells. Just tell the other players, "You want me to start memorizing healing spells? Go to the devil. There are too many other cool spells for me to even think about passing them up so I can heal your sorry hide."

This is how we always played clerics in my group. No cleric picked a single god, but a whole pantheon. He could still be of any alignment, but all of them held respect for each god within the pantheon in one way or another.

Friar Tuck, kickin' ass and brewin' medicinal beer.

also THIS

Ha! Love it. By the way, Friar Tuck is they way my group always envisioned the monk class. Who says his form of martial arts had to be of the Oriental kind. After all its called "open-hand" not "open-foot". Monks were just deadly pugilistic priests in our games.

[T. Foster]

D&D polytheism has nothing to do with any sort of historical polytheism and everything to do with the gods in Lankhmar -- a bunch of rival mystery cults competing for worshippers (and those worshippers' money). Also, the idea of clerics seeking converts (or at least donations) in exchange for performing their spells isn't something that only became part of the game in the dreaded mid-80s, it was there from almost the very beginning -- with the rivalry between Pholtus and St. Cuthbert in the Greyhawk Campaign and the depiction of the clerics of St. Cuthbert in module T1.

FWIW this (and the previous discussion of thieves) both fit in with how I depict pretty much all NPCs as utter bastards: thieves are all cowards and are all completely greedy and unscrupulous -- they'll pretty much always hide or run away when the going gets tough, and will pretty much always attempt to rob the party of whatever treasure is acquired; clerics are all preachy zealots in search of converts and donations and they know that the best way of getting both is to hold out on the healing magic that the rest of the party needs (and these are the good clerics, the evil ones are pretty much always angling how to use you as a sacrifice in their next ritual); magic-users are all utterly heartless and utilitarian and see everybody else purely as tools for getting what they want (more magic items, more spells, and the death of their rival mages) and won't have a second thought or moment of remorse at cutting you loose once you've served your purpose; fighters are about the only type of NPC you'll ever meet who aren't pretty much guaranteed to be total self-serving dicks (though to be honest most of them are self-serving dicks too...).

[AxeMental]

D&D polytheism has nothing to do with any sort of historical polytheism and everything to do with the gods in Lankhmar -- a bunch of rival mystery cults competing for worshippers (and those worshippers' money). Also, the idea of clerics seeking converts (or at least donations) in exchange for performing their spells isn't something that only became part of the game in the dreaded mid-80s, it was there from almost the very beginning -- with the rivalry between Pholtus and St. Cuthbert in the Greyhawk Campaign and the depiction of the clerics of St. Cuthbert in module T1.

FWIW this (and the previous discussion of thieves) both fit in with how I depict pretty much all NPCs as utter bastards: thieves are all cowards and are all completely greedy and unscrupulous -- they'll pretty much always hide or run away when the going gets tough, and will pretty much always attempt to rob the party of whatever treasure is acquired; clerics are all preachy zealots in search of converts and donations and they know that the best way of getting both is to hold out on the healing magic that the rest of the party needs (and these are the good clerics, the evil ones are pretty much always angling how to use you as a sacrifice in their next ritual); magic-users are all utterly heartless and utilitarian and see everybody else purely as tools for getting what they want (more magic items, more spells, and the death of their rival mages) and won't have a second thought or moment of remorse at cutting you loose once you've served your purpose; fighters are about the only type of NPC you'll ever meet who aren't pretty much guaranteed to be total self-serving dicks (though to be honest most of them are self-serving dicks too...).

Curious, was this something only the NPCs were up to or was this something the players were encouraged to "get into". I see this sort of thing totally classic 1E when its the NPCs, but just obnoxious when the party is exploring underground looking for some dragon treasure and some player keeps going on about his religion and why everyone should convert (if your very unlucky acting it out). He may be into his "role" but leave everyone else the f...k alone so they can enjoy the game.

[crub90706]

D&D polytheism has nothing to do with any sort of historical polytheism and everything to do with the gods in Lankhmar -- a bunch of rival mystery cults competing for worshippers (and those worshippers' money). Also, the idea of clerics seeking converts (or at least donations) in exchange for performing their spells isn't something that only became part of the game in the dreaded mid-80s, it was there from almost the very beginning -- with the rivalry between Pholtus and St. Cuthbert in the Greyhawk Campaign and the depiction of the clerics of St. Cuthbert in module T1.

FWIW this (and the previous discussion of thieves) both fit in with how I depict pretty much all NPCs as utter bastards: thieves are all cowards and are all completely greedy and unscrupulous -- they'll pretty much always hide or run away when the going gets tough, and will pretty much always attempt to rob the party of whatever treasure is acquired; clerics are all preachy zealots in search of converts and donations and they know that the best way of getting both is to hold out on the healing magic that the rest of the party needs (and these are the good clerics, the evil ones are pretty much always angling how to use you as a sacrifice in their next ritual); magic-users are all utterly heartless and utilitarian and see everybody else purely as tools for getting what they want (more magic items, more spells, and the death of their rival mages) and won't have a second thought or moment of remorse at cutting you loose once you've served your purpose; fighters are about the only type of NPC you'll ever meet who aren't pretty much guaranteed to be total self-serving dicks (though to be honest most of them are self-serving dicks too...).

[T. Foster]

Curious, was this something only the NPCs were up to or was this something the players were encouraged to "get into". I see this sort of thing totally classic 1E when its the NPCs, but just obnoxious when the party is exploring underground looking for some dragon treasure and some player keeps going on about his religion and why everyone should convert (if your very unlucky acting it out). He may be into his "role" but leave everyone else the f...k alone so they can enjoy the game.

Pretty much just NPCs -- the fact that almost literally everyone else in the world was a total asshole helped bring the players together, the realization that the other players are pretty much the only other trustworthy people they'll ever meet.

[geneweigel]

Its one thing to have a rust monster in the adventure all the time and its another to have a rust monster in the party. Sure it can be done and there is probably many old Greyhawk precedence of it (polymorph, pets, etc) but who really wants a rust monster in the party? The rust monster should be fed a steady diet of metal and kept healthy to guard some treasure somewhere not off adventuring or in a tavern somewhere!

Same thing for clerics keep them in the temples (and take away their bogus "free" magic)!

[Juju EyeBall]

Same thing for clerics keep them in the temples (and take away their bogus "free" magic)!

Magic User magic is way more bogus, all they have to do is sleep.
At a certain level Clerics can actually have spells not get granted if they aren't acting right.

[crub90706]

Same thing for clerics keep them in the temples (and take away their bogus "free" magic)!

Magic User magic is way more bogus, all they have to do is sleep.
At a certain level Clerics can actually have spells not get granted if they aren't acting right.

Yes, but magic-users must first find their spells and even when they do, if their INT isn't high enough, there is the chance they may not be able to learn the spell. And they are only able to learn so many spells per level, as dictated by INT. Any thing less then INT 19 he is capped.

All the cleric needs do is stay true to his beliefs and pray. (though they too need high WIS for 8th and 9th level spells,come to thinkof it).

[T. Foster]

All the cleric needs do is stay true to his beliefs and pray. (though they too need high WIS for 8th and 9th level spells,come to thinkof it).

Heh, around these parts cleric spells only go up to 7th level, thankyouverymuch

[crub90706]

All the cleric needs do is stay true to his beliefs and pray. (though they too need high WIS for 8th and 9th level spells,come to thinkof it).

Heh, around these parts cleric spells only go up to 7th level, thankyouverymuch

OOPS! Caught me. I've been faking it the whole time.

I meant to say 6th or 7th.

[Geoffrey]

D&D polytheism has nothing to do with any sort of historical polytheism and everything to do with the gods in Lankhmar -- a bunch of rival mystery cults competing for worshippers (and those worshippers' money).

That's a good distinction.

[AxeMental]

D&D polytheism has nothing to do with any sort of historical polytheism and everything to do with the gods in Lankhmar -- a bunch of rival mystery cults competing for worshippers (and those worshippers' money).

That's a good distinction.

Yes Geoffrey and the key word here is "mystery". We cherish the game (music, painting etc.) for what we can't clearly see, not for what we can. Let the player's mind connect the dots, even if they don't connect at all (usually what they imagine is far cooler then what we can come up with). What they do discover they should have to want to piece together and usually after some peril (ie they should earn knowledge). Those cults you see in some of the classic modules (often just hinted at) always reminded me of those cheesy Hammer devil worshipping movies of the 70s. "The Devil Rides Out" (a Christopher Lee movie) is one good example. Just lots of freaky people running around in robes you get to mowe over, and some bad boy clerical spell caster that needs to be carefully taken out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VE77ixG7DY

[JRT]

What I don't like is the "priest as heal pump" for one, but the big one is the "must convert the other players to the minutiae of a specific polytheistic sphere of control that is antagonistic".

While I like the cleric class as such in Gygaxian D&D, I hate the two things you mention here.

First of all, if there is a pantheon in a given campaign, then the clerics of the different gods in the pantheon wouldn't be trying to get people to worship Pantheon Member A instead of Pantheon Member B. Everybody who believes in the pantheon would worship every god in the pantheon. If you were going on a long sea voyage, you would begin it with a sacrifice to the Sea God. If a loved one died, you'd sacrifice to the God of the Dead. If you wanted a woman, you'd sacrifice to the Goddess of Erotic Love. Etc. It all depends on your circumstances. Polytheism doesn't have One God for All Occasions. That's why it is polytheism.

It's interesting to note that EGG did change his view of what he ended up calling "The Lords Spiritual" to be much more involved here. He did also emphasize the pantheon worship in his more recent works. That didn't come across in D&D, but as early as Mythus this did start coming to the fore. Probably his most recent take on the Clerics was represented in Living Fantasy, where he states that most RPGs (including D&D) de-emphasized the cleric or priest where they were very important to a fantasy society. You start seeing this late in his sorcerer's scroll columns.

One thing I find fascinating is that the elements criticized by a lot of "back to basics" old school fans (when we talk about delving into the OD&D stuff)--the existence of Thief and Cleric, is how as time went on they became more and more important. Look how much the thief became important in D&D--we get a subclass Thief-Acrobat, the archetypical character Gary writes, Gord, is a thief, etc. And in Gary's later work the cleric and more structured pantheons take hold. So I find it funny that there's a movement among some to eliminate the cleric and/or thief from the games, considering how central both ended up becoming in D&D as we know it.

[Philotomy Jurament]

I find it funny that there's a movement among some to eliminate the cleric and/or thief from the games, considering how central both ended up becoming in D&D as we know it.

I'm not interested in eliminating either from the game. I think they've both become "D&D Iconic" in their own right. However, I certainly don't feel bound to embrace everything that became D&D iconic, or even everything that Gary liked, when I'm running my game.