How do you handle PC elves invisibility equiv in woods?

[AxeMental]

Curious to know if elf PCs are subject to the same invisibility equiv. in woods described in MM. Also, do you allow elf PCs to fire and re-hide in the same round. I read it as a PC elf must be still to gain the invis equiv, otherwise 1-4 surprise. I also rule only NPC (monster) elves have the ability to fire and rehide in the same round (his seems more like a generic monster ability). Is this, IYO a correct interpretation, or do you allow elf PCs to do this as well?

Example, how would you handle this: An elf in leather is 50 feet from battle with his long bow hidden within a lightly forested area. He fires off 1 arrow a round at goblins picking them off and then rehides. A few of the goblins charge toward the area where the elf hides but cannot find him as he is able to stay out of melee range. Is this correct?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I don't allow player character dwarfs to save as if they were 4 levels higher, and I don't allow player character elves to be invisible in woods.

[James Maliszewski]

I don't allow player character elves to be invisible in woods.

Nor do I. According to the PHB, PC elves do get a surprise bonus when traveling alone and in non-metal armor, but there's no mention of their being invisible in woods that I can recall. I always assumed the MM reference to invisibility meant that most "monster" elves had cloaks of elvenkind, whereas PC elves did not (unless they acquired them through play).

[Matthew]

Well, since invisibility only grants something like an increase in surprise from 2 in 6 to 3 in 6 or 4 in 6 if you are very liberal, then I assume the elf ability to increase surprise in the racial description in the PHB to be a different description of the same ability as that in the MM.

[AxeMental]

I don't allow player character elves to be invisible in woods.

Nor do I. According to the PHB, PC elves do get a surprise bonus when traveling alone and in non-metal armor, but there's no mention of their being invisible in woods that I can recall. I always assumed the MM reference to invisibility meant that most "monster" elves had cloaks of elvenkind, whereas PC elves did not (unless they acquired them through play).

I don't think this is correct James, given the description of these cloaks in the DMG plus the rarity of them (and the fact anyone can use them if found).

One DM I know does this, and I'm thinking of aquiring it myself: they allow the elf to go unnoticed on a 1-4 in 6. (3 orcs looking for a slippery elf miss his hidden location and pass by). If the elf wishes to attack from this hidden state, surprise is rolled 1-4 in 6 (the passing orcs are suddenly attacked by the elf who wins 3 segs of surprise killing all with his long bow). Note: a moving elf can still surprise 1-4 in 6 but must additionally MS to go invisible equiv. in this DMs method.

If you think about it, this is sort of how a thief's HIS works. If a thief manages to make his HIS role, he may stay hidden as those dozen orc pass by his hiding place (say behind a bush); additionally the thief may suddenly attack from behind to deliver a backstab (say to the last orc in the column) requiring an additional surprise role (surprising on a 1-4 in 6).

[TRP]

I don't give it to them. Elf and halfling PCs just get the 1-4 out of 6 chance to surprise under the proper circumstances.

[Marriat the Ranger]

I don't allow player character dwarfs to save as if they were 4 levels higher, and I don't allow player character elves to be invisible in woods.

Ditto.

I'm very leery of using write ups in the MM and allowing them to apply to player characters. Tread lightly.

[James Maliszewski]

I don't think this is correct James, given the description of these cloaks in the DMG plus the rarity of them (and the fact anyone can use them if found).

You're right that the cloak of elvenkind, as described in the DMG, doesn't quite model what we see in the MM description, nor do I think it was supposed to. I'll admit I was probably thinking of OD&D's elven cloak write-up, which attributes "near invisibility" to its wearer. Given that the MM was written at a time when the OD&D influence was still strong (look at AC and alignment), I don't think it's implausible to make a connection.

All that aside, I think the real issue is that it can be problematic to try and use monster descriptions of various races as a basis for establishing the abilities of PC members of those races. If UA has taught us anything, it's that this is generally a practice fraught with peril.

[Matthew]

You're right that the cloak of elvenkind, as described in the DMG, doesn't quite model what we see in the MM description, nor do I think it was supposed to. I'll admit I was probably thinking of OD&D's elven cloak write-up, which attributes "near invisibility" to its wearer. Given that the MM was written at a time when the OD&D influence was still strong (look at AC and alignment), I don't think it's implausible to make a connection.

Te example of an invisible and silent party in the PHB as having a surprise roll of 4 in 6, the description of the move silently ability increasing the chance of surprise, and correlating with the cloak and boots of elvenkind, provides a pretty good idea of how these things interact.

• Elves in light armour have an increased chance of surprise
• Thieves moving silently have an increased chance of surprise
• Thieves hiding in shadows are virtually invisible
• The boots of elvenkind provide the ability to moves silently (99%)
• A cloak of elvenkind provides the ability to be virtually inviisble (99%)
• Being invisible increase the chance of surprise
• Being silent increases the chance of surprise

These are all very similar abilities; the question is whether the cloak and boots give elves their ability to move silently and hide, or whether they give non-elves the ability of elves.

All that aside, I think the real issue is that it can be problematic to try and use monster descriptions of various races as a basis for establishing the abilities of PC members of those races. If UA has taught us anything, it's that this is generally a practice fraught with peril.

No doubt.

[James Maliszewski]

These are all very similar abilities; the question is whether the cloak and boots give elves their ability to move silently and hide, or whether they give non-elves the ability of elves.

Based on the evidence of the PHB elf description, the MM elf description, and the DMG cloak of elvenkind description, it's muddled enough that I think you could make all sorts of reasonable arguments in favor of one interpretation or another. I personally think that's to the good, since it gives a lot of leeway to individual DMs.

[Matthew]

Based on the evidence of the PHB elf description, the MM elf description, and the DMG cloak of elvenkind description, it's muddled enough that I think you could make all sorts of reasonable arguments in favor of one interpretation or another. I personally think that's to the good, since it gives a lot of leeway to individual DMs.

Indeed; though eventually, the individual game master must actually decide one way or the other, based on whatever criteria seems reasonable to him. For my part, I usually interpret the cloaks and boots to give the ability of elves, but I do not begrudge others their less logical conclusions.

[James Maliszewski]

For my part, I usually interpret the cloaks and boots to give the ability of elves, but I do not begrudge others their less logical conclusions.

We are of like mind on this, for all that it matters. I interpret the rarity of the cloak and boats as random treasures to the fact that elves are careful not to let them fall into the hands of other races, but, as you say, other conclusions are possible.

[Wheggi]

For my part, I usually interpret the cloaks and boots to give the ability of elves, but I do not begrudge others their less logical conclusions.

We are of like mind on this, for all that it matters. I interpret the rarity of the cloak and boats as random treasures to the fact that elves are careful not to let them fall into the hands of other races, but, as you say, other conclusions are possible.

Then it sucks to be Fonkin Hoddypeak.

EDIT: I may have misinterpreted what you guys are getting at. Are you saying that all elves have these abilities, or that only elves with the cloak and boots?

- Wheggi

[James Maliszewski]

Then it sucks to be Fonkin Hoddypeak.

I thought that was a given

[Wheggi]

But he was definately cooler than Fage the Kexy! (it should be stated right here that Gary's use of Vancian-style names for these tourney characters is nothing but pure awesome.)

- Wheggi