Regarding ART in DS thread

Terrex · Post by **Terrex** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:16 pm

Right. Sutherland, on the other hand, leaves us with no such doubt when it comes to the woman in the clutch of the Efreeti...

JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:52 pm

I don't want to get into whether or not the change in art style was the "death" of the old school--that gets a little off topic. Most of the first artists at TSR were hobbyists who happened to have artistic talent. I simply believe that as TSR made more money and got their products into bookstores, there was a higher expectation for quality and more proficient artists and (graphic) designers were hired. Seeing it as anything other than that is a bit flawed, IMO.

But I did want to address two specific themes. There seems to be two arguments. The first one is the quality of DCS3 vs. other newer artists. The second is the chosen scene used on the cover image for the DMG.

Let me address the first problem. The issue is not so much "realism", as all art is designed to simulate a object in the viewers mind. Realism is the wrong term--especially when you are drawing creatures that don't exist in nature.

Probably the best way to understand this type of art is to use Scott McCloud's Big Triangle as a reference. There's a 3 point alignment where you can measure such art. All the TSR/WoTC artists can pretty much be placed on that triangle, even if they aren't cartoonists.

My key criticism of Sutherland is not the point he occupies on the big triangle, but a lot of the art I see has technical flaws. There are some flaws with basic perspective, for instance. If you look at the original DMG there's a certain stiffness to the characters--they don't appear to be moving well. The Efreet is particularly strange. He doesn't seem to be looking either at the girl or his attackers, and the sword isn't even positioned reacting to either. It's almost like he's a statue. Compare this to other Efreet pictures of early TSR, such as Tramp's version in the original MM. The MM also shows this weakness in perspective and "action sequences", where the drawings don't convey an illusion of movement. I'm sure he improved a little over time but even looking at that Warhammer art he did, I still see a few of those flaws.

Compare him to Dave Trampier. While some of Tramp's original MM drawings might look a little stiff, Tramp has a pretty good handle on action sequences and poses--all you have to do is read episodes of Wormy to see. He doesn't have the technical flaws that DCS3 has.

So my first point is that Sutherland had enough technical flaws to be a little jarring. And I have a feeling he recognized these weaknesses, and TSR certainly did, as either he gave up (or was encouraged by TSR) most drawing professionally to be involved in cartography. There are artists I would not consider "A tier" who don't have technical flaws. I've seen several artists in more small press RPG books that don't have the flaws I see in Sutherland's work in early TSR.

The second point deals with what was drawn for the DMG. Now, this, I can see some of the points. While I think a picture of a single wizard, demiurge, villain, might be suitable for a DMG, I accept the opinion that an action sequence might be more suitable.

However, this ignores the fact that there are several examples of this from TSR in the early 80s. Don't like Jeff Easley's covers? Well, what about stuff from Larry Elmore, Jim Halloway, Keith Parkinson, or Clyde Caldwell? And keep in mind I am deliberately ignoring the more modern artists of 2e/3e days, sticking to the artists who worked during the 1e days in the 1980s.

Heck, just looking at CC's Gallery alone shows several examples used in other TSR products that might have been perfect for the DMG, and both inspire the imagination as well as are of better quality than Sutherland's DMG art. I could see Spellfire, Pirates, or Red Sands being suitable.

So the setting used doesn't change the fact in my mind that Sutherland's art is weak. While I have good memories of the original DMG, and I loved seeing a "Simpsonized" version of the original MM in Futurama, I also don't see it as very good artwork, and I doubt if TSR had more money in the beginning that Sutherland's art would be used as much as it was. I respect the man for what he did and thought his cartography work was top notch, and am saddened at how his career ended, but I can't say he was anything other than a mediocre fantasy artist.

blackprinceofmuncie · Post by **blackprinceofmuncie** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:04 pm

My main impression of Clyde Caldwell is that he's never seen a woman's breasts outside of a glossy magazine that comes in a brown paper wrapper. That's an impressive collection of gravity-defying ta-tas!

Wheggi · Post by **Wheggi** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:16 pm

Just as my impression of the vast majority of Larry Elmore's work is that he's painting people posing in Ren Faire costumes.

- Wheggi

Vigilance · Post by **Vigilance** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:23 pm

Looking over the Clyde Caldwell art on that page, I will say this about him:

I like that scantily-clad babes in chainmail bikinis isn't ALL he does. There's a fair variety on display in that page.

I never cared for chainmail bikinis myself, but images of his like Spellfire, Orcs of Thar, and Dragons of Despair were always images I liked in spite of myself.

Call them guilty pleasures I guess.

Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:28 pm

blackprinceofmuncie wrote:My main impression of Clyde Caldwell is that he's never seen a woman's breasts outside of a glossy magazine that comes in a brown paper wrapper.

To me, Caldwell is the "shiny round gem guy." His gems (and weapons) always jumped out and annoyed me. (Another "jump out annoyance" is the "pin up" frozen poses often used in cover pieces from that era of TSR art -- but that's not limited to Caldwell.)

Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:29 pm

Wheggi wrote:Just as my impression of the vast majority of Larry Elmore's work is that he's painting people posing in Ren Faire costumes.

Often the same people with different wigs, perhaps. (I always get reminded of a girl from high school who used to wear a feathered roach clip in her hair.)

JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:41 pm

I agree that there's a cheesecake element to fantasy art, at times, although Elmore and Caldwell seem respectful of women and don't just do the whole women in bikini stuff. (And based on his photos, a lot of women like CC's art, plus I think a lot of fantasy artists use real models).

But look at a guy like Jim Holloway

http://www.jimhollowayart.com/

His art doesn't have the technical flaws of Sutherland, and he seems to do a lot more "regular joes"

rogatny · Post by **rogatny** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:48 pm

I'm not the first to say it, but Elmore was the Norman Rockwell of D&D. All his art is so clean and wholesome. You'd never think there was any actual adventure in the worlds his art depicts. Everything is just so pretty and happy. I'm not sure he ever did a single picture in a... you know... dungeon. Always pretty ladies standing in front of pretty mountains with a pretty pegasus or something.

I'd rather have Erol Otus' slime, darkness, and depravity every day of the week.

JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:50 pm

rogatny wrote:I'm not the first to say it, but Elmore was the Norman Rockwell of D&D. All his art is so clean and wholesome. You'd never think there was any actual adventure in the worlds his art depicts. Everything is just so pretty and happy.

You need to read (or re-read) Snarfquest. That was probably the best comic that ran in Dragon. It's a real good showcase of Elmore's abilities.

rogatny · Post by **rogatny** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:53 pm

JRT wrote:
rogatny wrote:I'm not the first to say it, but Elmore was the Norman Rockwell of D&D. All his art is so clean and wholesome. You'd never think there was any actual adventure in the worlds his art depicts. Everything is just so pretty and happy.
You need to read (or re-read) Snarfquest. That was probably the best comic that ran in Dragon. It's a real good showcase of Elmore's abilities.

Sorry, Wormy.

JRT · Post by **JRT** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:18 pm

For some reason now, after seeing Wheegi's sig, I have an urge to someday (if I had the money to spare) get Caldwell or Elmore to draw a comparison drawing of the Random Harlot table, like those charts comparing races...

TRP · Post by **TRP** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:54 pm

rogatny wrote:
JRT wrote:
rogatny wrote:I'm not the first to say it, but Elmore was the Norman Rockwell of D&D. All his art is so clean and wholesome. You'd never think there was any actual adventure in the worlds his art depicts. Everything is just so pretty and happy.
You need to read (or re-read) Snarfquest. That was probably the best comic that ran in Dragon. It's a real good showcase of Elmore's abilities.
Sorry, Wormy.

Fin was also superior to Snarf.

Stonegiant · Post by **Stonegiant** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:27 pm

IMO Snarfquest was the most boring pile crap I had ever read.

Wormy and Fin however cracked me up.

blackprinceofmuncie · Post by **blackprinceofmuncie** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:38 pm

JRT wrote:plus I think a lot of fantasy artists use real models).

If Clyde Caldwell is using models, there isn't much that's "real" about them.

Not that he isn't a talented artist. A lot of his stuff is so garishly colored that it looks like Twinkies taste, but there's some good stuff in that gallery too. The Sage of Old City cover is pretty good, as are a few of the Dragonlance pieces.