What's up with the Zeb Cook hatred?

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blackprinceofmuncie
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Post by blackprinceofmuncie »

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
thedungeondelver wrote:There actually were monster cards for AD&D; four sets IIRC. They were not well received.

(I for one would like to get my hands on them but that's just me...)
I thought they were cool. One of my friends had them, when I lived in Hawaii (late 80s). That was the first time I'd seen them.

Check out some of the Otus illustrations from monster cards.
Yeah, I had a few of the sets when I was a kid, but they got lost/stolen somewhere along the way. I always thought they were a great idea and wished there had been more of them.

Weren't there some monster cards produced during the 2e era too? I seem to remember someone mentioning some, but I don't remember seeing any or ever hearing of anyone who bought them. Were they similar to the early ones?

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Taking ya'll from middle school to college, I'll tell ya that AD&D was appealing to the college-aged crowd in the early 80's. We were buying the books and playing the game. Our regular Friday night games held in a science bldg classroom easily ran between 8 and 15 players, and ran even higher on occasion. That was only our game, I know of at least one other game going on Friday nights in the same bldg. No telling what was up on other nights or in other bldgs.

The game wasn't just popular with junior the high crowd.

As far as social cachet? There was that, too. It was definitely a coed crowd. Sometimes we may have drinks (or other .. ahem .. "refreshements") prior to the game, but the real party began after the game, around 11pm or so, and usually went to near dawn. The gaming was part of a larger social scene. This was all before the D&D is for nerds stigma.

How does this fit into the current demographic discussion? I don't know, I'll leave figuring that out to others. This is just a little anecdotal data to throw into your marketing gumbo.

I suppose I could suggest this though, that any marketer that thinks the over high school aged is lost as an entry level gamer is dead wrong. Of course, there's now about 25 years of screwing the pooch and allowing the perception to grow that D&D is a kiddie nerd game, that'd take some serious work to turn that around to appeal to "older" folks as first time players. It's not the 18 - 22* years old that are different, it's the perception of the game that's changed, and at least part of that perception was cultivated by the Kiddie D&D games as well as those who pushed 2e on up.

Oh yeah. Throw me into the Disdain For Most Gamers Club as well.

* Only the clothes have changed. Intellectually and emotionally, a 19 year old is a 19 year old. I know, I've got a teen and an early 20something. The jargon's different and they've got texting, but they're still young, human adults. Unlimited level, of course. :wink:
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Post by JLowder »

TheRedPriest wrote:there's now about 25 years of screwing the pooch and allowing the perception to grow that D&D is a kiddie nerd game, that'd take some serious work to turn that around to appeal to "older" folks as first time players. It's not the 18 - 22* years old that are different, it's the perception of the game that's changed, and at least part of that perception was cultivated by the Kiddie D&D games as well as those who pushed 2e on up.
The D&D-is-for-nerds image was attached to the game pretty much from the start. Certainly by the late 1970s it was seen as part of youth "geek culture"--advertised in comic books and sold in hobby stores alongside the model rockets and other less-than-hip pursuits. 2E cannot be blamed for that. There was a contingent of somewhat less nerdy college-aged people who were part of that first wave of D&D players, the same group that was also making fantasy fiction resurgent in the 70s, but the game was never really divorced from the young nerd image.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

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Post by AxeMental »

Q: "You're assuming you are representative of the larger potential market. Most 7th graders are not interested in reading hundreds of pages of rules to play a game. Most 7th graders are not all that interested in reading at all. Reading is not a regular pursuit for many, many people in the US, kids or adults. And the more difficult the reading, the less likely it is to appeal to a wide audience. I wish it were not true, but that's the way it is."

You seem to hold a low opinion of 7th graders (and kids in general I suspect). After 7 Harry Potter books being monumental money makers (their author the second wealthiest woman in England after the queen, and in a single decade, millions upon millions of copies sold and read over and over (a rags to riches story) off the back of, for the most part, millions of young kids (mine was in 4th grade when she started reading The Sorcerer's Stone) I think that myth would have gone to the way side. Its not kids that are lacking, its adults who fail to believe in their potential (and adults who fail to see the potential in other adults). Kids and adults alike crave intellectualism. Even dumbed down movies and television programs attempt to leave the audience feeling smart *illusion or not*. Everyone wants to feel intelligent, its hard wired in. What generally happens is that marketers project their own failings and self-esteem issues onto others, assuming them to be as dismal as they themselves feel they are. This results in "dumbed down" products that don't sell because they are boring and lack depth.

Gygax believed in the potential of kids, just as Tolkien and other greats have over the decades. Give kids a good education (just the basics mind you -something they aren't getting now) a good happy home and they will generally take care of the rest on their own. :wink:

Jim: Beyond that--yes, there have been personal attacks here. Calling someone a liar is a personal attack, particularly when the claim is based on no evidence. Calling someone a "bad person" or assuming someone worked on a project as a way to attack Gary or anyone else--those are indeed personal attacks. Assuming you know motivations--for anyone, but particularly for people you do not know--is simply a bad idea. Almost as bad an idea as deciding someone is or is not a good person based upon the products they worked on for a game company.

Who called whom a bad person (do you have a link)? Who said someone was a "not a good person" based on the products they worked on for a game company (once again a link)? Saying Zeb created shit on a stick and stuck a D&D logo on it isn't the same as saying Zeb was a bad person. I've written total crap in the past (and I mean really terrible stuff) and if you read it you'd probably agree...might even call it shit on a stick, but I'd know you didn't mean I was a bad person (I'd probably thank you for taking the time to read it). Anyone who creates and puts their work "out there" needs to be ready for some honest feedback (both good and bad).

As for speculating other peoples motivations (so and so did something to personally attack Gary) thats a legitimate past time, given that there is some evidence to support such a claim (and as long as its not being presented as fact (ie rumor spreading) but only a possible reality).
Last edited by AxeMental on Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by TRP »

JLowder wrote:
TheRedPriest wrote:there's now about 25 years of screwing the pooch and allowing the perception to grow that D&D is a kiddie nerd game, that'd take some serious work to turn that around to appeal to "older" folks as first time players. It's not the 18 - 22* years old that are different, it's the perception of the game that's changed, and at least part of that perception was cultivated by the Kiddie D&D games as well as those who pushed 2e on up.
The D&D-is-for-nerds image was attached to the game pretty much from the start. Certainly by the late 1970s it was seen as part of youth "geek culture"--advertised in comic books and sold in hobby stores alongside the model rockets and other less-than-hip pursuits. 2E cannot be blamed for that. There was a contingent of somewhat less nerdy college-aged people who were part of that first wave of D&D players, the same group that was also making fantasy fiction resurgent in the 70s, but the game was never really divorced from the young nerd image.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
I've got my own personal experiences that contradict your assertion. Just because D&D was for sale in hobby stores, I can assure you that it appealed to people waaaay beyond the nerd hobbyist. In fact, most of the players, especially the women, wouldn't have been caught dead playing Napoleonics, assembling scale models of the Hornet, launching model rockets or playing with toy trains.

I was maybe the nerdiest of the group, having that wargaming background that most of my group didn't have. Like all good college students of the late '70s and early '80s, we were most interested in getting laid, getting high, rock concerts, arguing with our professors and sleeping in late.

Seriously, I don't know who did the marketing studies for TSR, but it's a shame it's too late to get your money back. Abandoning the older crowd could have been one of the biggest mistakes ever made by the company.

BTW, Jim. What are you basing your assertion on that D&D was a fringe nerd phenom from the beginning? What were you up to in '74, '77, '80 and '83?
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Post by JLowder »

AxeMental wrote:You seem to hold a low opinion of 7th graders (and kids in general I suspect).
You could not be more wrong. By way of highlighting how far off these sorts of speculations can be, let me offer some specifics.

I'm very active in gifted & talented education locally; I'm the parent rep for a large school district to a gifted ed cooperative. In fact, I have a kid in the local G&T program. I was an "accelerated learner" myself and have both an honors BA and a Masters. I've volunteered in classrooms to help kids with writing, in addition to having taught college-level writing and mass media courses at a big state school and a small private school. All that in addition to two decades of publishing work in genres that appeal quite specifically to bright teens and young adults.

I know what sort of potential kids can have and do everything I can to get kids appropriate challenges, but I also have a realistic understanding of the entire spectrum of learners and the general cultural attitude toward reading.

Most kids don't read for enjoyment and will not read for enjoyment as adults. I've seen stats from literacy groups that note something like a third of all kids who graduate high school will never read another book in their lifetime. Almost half of all college grads don't read after college. The stats get more grim from there.

A bestselling book is generally considered one that sells 100,000 copies. You could put a test pattern on TV in most big cities and get 100,000 people to watch it. Yes, the Harry Potter series has sold a lot of books, but most books do not earn back their advances and sell a couple thousand copies.

Reading is not a big part of our culture. That role diminishes every year. A game that relies heavily on reading, particularly complex reading, is going to have a hard time appealing to a mass market.
AxeMental wrote:Who called whom a bad person (do you have a link)? Who said someone was a "not a good person" based on the products they worked on for a game company (once again a link)?
You only need read the first post in the "Zeb Cook is a liar" thread, which contains "I don't like Zeb Cook, I think he's a bad person." There are more examples, but I'm not going to bother trotting them all out.

As you correctly note, anyone who has published anything should know to expect criticism of the work. But there's a big difference between saying a book is bad and the person who worked on it is a bad person. The former is criticism. The latter is defamation.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

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Post by JLowder »

TheRedPriest wrote:I've got my own personal experiences that contradict your assertion. Just because D&D was for sale in hobby stores, I can assure you that it appealed to people waaaay beyond the nerd hobbyist. In fact, most of the players, especially the women, wouldn't have been caught dead playing Napoleonics, assembling scale models of the Hornet, launching model rockets or playing with toy trains.
Did the game have an appeal beyond that core hobbyist/nerd crowd? Sure. Absolutely. As you say, your experience confirms that. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the majority of the audience was, even at the start, the young nerds and the hobbyists, the people who were also playing Napoleonics. You can see that in where and how the game was being sold. There were exceptions, where the game almost broke into the wider mass market, just as Sears sold Avalon Hill wargames at one time. But they were exceptions and the older, hipper players were the outliers. The core was still younger players and hobbyists, pretty much from the start. Even marketing the game to that crowd wasn't a 2E phenomenon.
TheRedPriest wrote:BTW, Jim. What are you basing your assertion on that D&D was a fringe nerd phenom from the beginning? What were you up to in '74, '77, '80 and '83?
I started playing in high school in '76 or '77 and played in college. (My wife played before I met her.) As for my knowledge of the earliest years, that comes from talking with people who were working in the industry, reading what histories exist, and putting together books like Hobby Games: The 100 Best that include a lot of people who were there at the start.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder

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Post by Ermanaric »

JLowder wrote: There were exceptions, where the game almost broke into the wider mass market, just as Sears sold Avalon Hill wargames at one time. But they were exceptions and the older, hipper players were the outliers. The core was still younger players and hobbyists, pretty much from the start. Even marketing the game to that crowd wasn't a 2E phenomenon.
1983 Sears Catalog:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wishbook/1 ... 058700769/

Notice that D&D and AD&D were sold there as well. Including other games like Star Frontiers, Traveller, Star Fleet Battles, Star Trek RPG, and Space Opera (the latter two on plage 589):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wishbook/1 ... 058700769/

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Post by Wheggi »

JLowder wrote: The D&D-is-for-nerds image was attached to the game pretty much from the start. Certainly by the late 1970s it was seen as part of youth "geek culture"--advertised in comic books and sold in hobby stores alongside the model rockets and other less-than-hip pursuits. 2E cannot be blamed for that. There was a contingent of somewhat less nerdy college-aged people who were part of that first wave of D&D players, the same group that was also making fantasy fiction resurgent in the 70s, but the game was never really divorced from the young nerd image.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Maybe where you were from, but here in Los Angeles in the late 70's/early 80's AD&D was firmly in the realm of 'stoner/musician/artist counter-culture'. AD&D players were the jr. high/high school/college guys with long hair, wearing concert T-Shirts, listened to metal and progressive rock, either played in a band or was an artist, and smoked ungodly amounts of dope. You could buy your books and dice not only at the hobby store (where they sold tabletop miniature games, you know - the uncool game your dad would play) but also at the head shop and record store. AD&D was the 'big brother's' game, the one that younger kids wishing to be 'cool' would aspire to play and ask for on Christmas, only to get the lame 'kiddie' BD&D. I'm sure more than a few illegitimate kids were conceived on top of a Player's Handbook casually thrown on the back seat of a Nova.

It was only later, when it lost its indie cred and drew in every social misfit, Wiccan headcase and Ren Faire psuedo-thespian did it become the albatross it is seen as today.

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Post by James Maliszewski »

Wheggi wrote:Maybe where you were from, but here in Los Angeles in the late 70's/early 80's AD&D was firmly in the realm of 'stoner/musician/artist counter-culture'. AD&D players were the jr. high/high school/college guys with long hair, wearing concert T-Shirts, listened to metal and progressive rock, either played in a band or was an artist, and smoked ungodly amounts of dope. You could buy your books and dice not only at the hobby store (where they sold tabletop miniature games, you know - the uncool game your dad would play) but also at the head shop and record store. AD&D was the 'big brother's' game, the one that younger kids wishing to be 'cool' would aspire to play and ask for on Christmas, only to get the lame 'kiddie' BD&D. I'm sure more than a few illegitimate kids were conceived on top of a Player's Handbook casually thrown on the back seat of a Nova.
This was true on the East Coast as well. I grew up in Baltimore and I can confirm that there were plenty of metal heads and stoners who played D&D. The description "big brother's game" is very apt, particularly in my case, since it was a friend's high school age metal head brother who taught us how to play using the Holmes rules in 1979/80.

That's not to say that nerds didn't play D&D -- I'm proof they did -- but what I remember most vividly about those early days was that gaming was one of the few occasions where guys like my friend's older brother would give us the time of day. Geeks and longhairs mingled quite peaceably playing RPGs well into the 80s. Whether that's an unusual phenomenon I can't say, but it did happen.

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Post by AxeMental »

Jim: "Most kids don't read for enjoyment and will not read for enjoyment as adults. I've seen stats from literacy groups that note something like a third of all kids who graduate high school will never read another book in their lifetime. Almost half of all college grads don't read after college. The stats get more grim from there. "

So you agree with me then, that challanging and interesting books should be presented to kids at a younger age so that this interest can continue on into adulthood. Well, thats just what Gygax did with 1E (many a kid developed a strong appreciation for reading and research from those 3 core books (taking that experiance and applying it to their own fields of interest later in life).

You could play the kiddie game 0E (what 5th graders cut their teeth on) or you could go for 1E (the percieved adult game -which in reality was a game for kids in middle school and high school, thats where its biggest market existed anyway). Remember too, 1E books were bought by the "smart kids" in class (the DMs), not by every student who just wanted to play. As players started to understand the game and its power, they too wanted to DM and thus bought the books. This was how I experianced the progression of 1Es players (who eventually made up 1/3 of the boys in my class, far more then played Risk or Monopoly on a regular basis). The key to 1Es success was the slow and steady build up and its consistancy of rules over time. Sure it had a fad element, but that was secondary. The game concept itself was its strength.

2E and 3E approached thier marketing differently, targetting instead the players and DMs at the get go (buying into the concept that games are fads and that its best to "strike the largets potential market while the iron is hot". By not believing in the long standing nature of a well designed and marketed game (like many board games out there) they created a self-fulfilling prophecy...2E became a fad because that was what it was designed to be (the colorful art and presentation screamed this). 3E follows the same template and so does 4E. All three failed (or will fail) to become perminant fixtures in the American culture (and develop a huge market size) with staying power because they don't believe in their product or the mental capacity of its players. Their way of thinking is a looser mentality. The D&D brand and potential was huge in the early 80s, and then was systematically trashed by those wishing to take advantage of the market the previous system had developed for them, with new "have to have" books (if you wanted to stay modern). At the time of 2E, 1E sales and interest were still going strong. There was still many groups all over my college that played 1E on weekends. Once 2E became popular, the game was tried and then dumped not holding the interests of the players (and most groups never reformed, jaded by the experiance, craving the new 2E promised but failed to deliver on, and missing the old (the system that worked) which was now talked down by the super-geek squad. Where once it was acceptable to admit you played D&D it suddenly was social death (because only the biggest wierdos played 2E). I remember when I dated in college I had to point this history out to the girls who new I played (assuring them my 1E was normal, no different then playing any other board game).

Jim, your statement that the bulk of the core players of 1E were established gamers is not correct in my experiance. For instance, in my highschool we had a huge AD&D club which ran from 82-88' or so (I think its membership rose to about 150 kids out of a total school population of 500). Of those, probably 95% new of only 1E (with zero knowledge of other hobbiest games). And I'd say none of them considered themselves hobbiests (they played 1E as if it were Risk, it just kept their interest and created bonds more soundly) most were average kids, who dated and played sports (not the fringe geeks that came to define the game a half-decade later). Sure, initially D&D may have started with that core market of serious hobbyiest/gamers (hell that group invented the game), but its wide spread acceptance by millions made it on par with the more popular board games of the day. Thats why none of us could believe the stupidity of TSR when they threw that all away with 2E (focusing on the most rabid geekiest portion of the existing market). If TSR had been smart they would have kept OD&D and 1E going indefinitely and supported both along with 2E (at the very least). What they really should have done (and what was the most obvious course) was to dominate all catagories of RPGs (Conan, horror, vampires, Star Trek etc.) by simply buying out their competitors and using the D&D brand to unify them under a single combat system (creating rules for its new games that were very similar to 1E). Everyone I new was pretty shocked when 2E came out, its colorful and splashy covers a huge turn off. Most of us were pushed away from D&D, no longer welcomed in its house (rather then drawn away by choices that were "better" then 1E. For instance, people played GURPS because they no longer could stomach what D&D had become). Why TSR hadn't unifide its various games under the AD&D rules system from the get go (what GURPS was) is also a big question. I guess Gygax was the one who dropped the ball here early on.

In any event, the bottom line is this: if 1E had stayed in print and was continually supported by TSR with new modules and support material (of classic quality), both 1E and TSR would probably still be in existance today. I found it very telling that Gygax's death was covered by almost every major newspaper and television station. Hell, CNN had his death on the front page of its website for a week (do you think the same will be done for anyone associated with 2E...I doubt it :cry: ). Gygax (oddly enough) is/was "mainstream" 2E (and its later incarnations) are not.
Last edited by AxeMental on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by northrundicandus »

Continuing the discussion of metalheads and D&D, I just finished reading a biography of the late Cliff Burton (of Metallica), To Live Is To Die. Both Burton and Kirk Hammett were new-comers to the band, not being founding members of the group. They were a bit outside of the tight friendship that Lars and James had. But both Cliff and Kirk clicked together as friends quickly, and one of the things that helped that relationship was when Kirk saw one of Cliff's AD&D books.

Fuckin' A! Cliff played AD&D too, back when it was cool.

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northrundicandus wrote:Continuing the discussion of metalheads and D&D, I just finished reading a biography of the late Cliff Burton (of Metallica), To Live Is To Die. Both Burton and Kirk Hammett were new-comers to the band, not being founding members of the group. They were a bit outside of the tight friendship that Lars and James had. But both Cliff and Kirk clicked together as friends quickly, and one of the things that helped that relationship was when Kirk saw one of Cliff's AD&D books.

Fuckin' A! Cliff played AD&D too, back when it was cool.

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Post by rogatny »

Paul McCartney was the reason I wanted to be in a rock and roll band.

Gene Simmons was the reason I wanted to be a bassist.

Cliff Burton was the reason I wanted to be a good bassist and spent a decade in punk and metal bands. He was my idol and I was shattered the day he died. He brought some disparate punk, prog, and psych influences to Metallica (whereas Lars and James were pretty much straight up metal heads) that gave a flavor to Metallica's second and third albums that they've never been able to recapture.
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Post by WGrinn »

AxeMental wrote: I remember when I dated in college I had to point this history out to the girls who new I played (assuring them my 1E was normal, no different then playing any other board game).
Regardless of long hair, music, or anything else a handful of hippies claim was the "cool" cliche', and by your own admittance, the fact that you actually had to point out the history of the game to a girl to reaffirm that you aren't one of the "2E weirdos" screams nerd at the top of its lungs. I'm sure those girls were mighty impressed with your superior knowledge of AD&D. LOL.
Remember too, 1E books were bought by the "smart kids" in class (the DMs), not by every student who just wanted to play.
FYI, those are called nerds. By this point, I'm beginning to think that someone is wearing a pretty thick pair of rose colored glasses.
As players started to understand the game and its power, they too wanted to DM and thus bought the books. This was how I experianced the progression of 1Es players (who eventually made up 1/3 of the boys in my class, far more then played Risk or Monopoly on a regular basis). The key to 1Es success was the slow and steady build up and its consistancy of rules over time. Sure it had a fad element, but that was secondary. The game concept itself was its strength.
Bullshit, 1E was a mess of disorganization and chaos. Half the time people threw out the majority of the rules and house-ruled everything because so much of it didn't make sense or contradicted itself. Hell, most players today still can't agree on what is what and how things should work. Just look at all of the debates floating around the forums like DF to see this in effect. EGG himself even said on more than one occasion, he'd wished he'd have never used certain elements of the rules because they didn't work very well.
If TSR had been smart they would have kept OD&D and 1E going indefinitely and supported both along with 2E (at the very least).
That is perhaps the most valid and intelligent point, you've made through-out this entire thread.
I found it very telling that Gygax's death was covered by almost every major newspaper and television station. Hell, CNN had his death on the front page of its website for a week (do you think the same will be done for anyone associated with 2E...I doubt it Crying or Very sad ). Gygax (oddly enough) is/was "mainstream" 2E (and its later incarnations) are not.
:roll: He wasn't remembered in the news for some glorious 1st edition stand against the tyranny of TSR and the latter editions of the game. He was remember simply because he, along with Arneson, created the Dungeons and Dragons game and most people consider him the "Father of Role-playing".

What do you think the media will do when someone working on the latest edition of the Windows OS at Microsoft dies? Probably nothing. But what about when Bill Gates goes? I guarantee it will be on every news channel for a couple days, just like EGG.

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