For our friends across the pond

[quatzl]

Say it ain't so

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081122/ap_ ... G_4xRbbBAF


As if the anti-gun legislation were not enough, they are coming after your pints, boys!

[TRP]

No happy hour?!?!

Why.

That's.


Un-American!!!

[Ska]

Q--we are seeing this kind of European big governement Nanny state mentality here in the U.S. also.

More socialist crap which will make it's way over here. Obama and Co. will tell you how much of your $ you can keep, want to force mandatory hours of community work on high school and college students etc. They are socialist-fascist.

Watch for them to quickly stifle free speech with an all out attack on the conservative voice heard on talk radio.

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Well, binge drinking *is* a significant problem here. Much more so than in the United States--perhaps because the US has a history of prohibition and of a generally condemnatory attitude to drunkenness, whereas culturally we tend to tolerate or even glorify it.

Alcohol's a factor in more than half of recorded crime and anti-social behaviour in the UK. Speaking as someone who works in youth justice, I wouldn't mind seeing less cheap alcohol available here.

Is it another instance of the nanny state? Sure... but in the context of a year when the government's nationalised or part-nationalised several major banks, it's pretty small potatoes.

[Mythmere]

Is it another instance of the nanny state? Sure... but in the context of a year when the government's nationalised or part-nationalised several major banks, it's pretty small potatoes.

I don't see those as being the same issue - financial vs. personal life involvement. But in the case of happy hour, they're not regulating peoples' lives, they're regulating a business practice that relates to the marketing of a problematic commodity. People can buy drinks cheaper than in a pub, and aren't prohibited from drinking alone; nor is the pub being closed during those times, just being prevented from charging with a particular pricing structure.

Plus, we Americans are extremely sensitive to liquor laws because they are so likely to be motivated or over-supported based on moral reasons coming from fundamentalists. That's just not part of the British legislative landscape. So I'd say no big deal.

[The Icemaiden]

Well, binge drinking *is* a significant problem here.

Alcohol's a factor in more than half of recorded crime and anti-social behaviour in the UK. Speaking as someone who works in youth justice, I wouldn't mind seeing less cheap alcohol available here.

.

Quite true, which led to the Scottish Legal System not accepting "being drunk" as a suitable defence in violent crime.

I dont see the scrapping of happy hours as being a "cure" to the problem. We still have supermarkets selling alcohol for less than the price of soft drinks, even water.

I actually worked in the drinks industry and our product was being sold for less than we sold it to some supermarket chains, to make up the loss the price of food is increased..its crazy... but unfortunately the UK has a serious problem with the way it views alcohol. Our cousins in the US and Europe may find it hard to believe but the talk of banning of Happy Hours has received a bigger public backlash than the cutting back on educational services

[Werral]

Well, binge drinking *is* a significant problem here. Much more so than in the United States--perhaps because the US has a history of prohibition and of a generally condemnatory attitude to drunkenness, whereas culturally we tend to tolerate or even glorify it.

Having spent years walking past drunk American students puking their guts out outside Rome's "Irish" pubs I wouldn't be so sure of that. I'd say the American drinking culture is quite similar to the British one.

Of course that may have something to do with the fact that in America you have to be 21 and in Europe only 18 (actually 16 in Italy).

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Of course that may have something to do with the fact that in America you have to be 21 and in Europe only 18 (actually 16 in Italy).

In Britain, you can lawfully drink alcohol from the age of 5.

If you're drinking in a public place, a Police Officer or Police Community Support Officer can confiscate the booze. And if someone sells it to you, then the seller commits an offence unless you're over 18 (exception: you can have a glass of wine with a meal in a pub or restaurant from the age of 14).

But your parents, or another responsible adult, can buy alcohol and give it to you, and that's perfectly lawful.

Making you wait til you're 21 to drink alcohol is just weird. I mean, you've got teenagers wandering about the streets, old enough to carry a loaded firearm but not old enough to get a beer or a blow job?

Young, armed, and frustrated. Clever...

[Kellri]

I've read that many workingman's clubs and pubs that traditionally enjoyed custom all evening, now pack much of their business into a 1-2 hour period selling alco-pops and the like. Sounds like a frat kegger held at high speed, dumping a lot of kids back out on the streets drunk. Combine that with a big rise in knifings and kids carrying knives and you've got a bad situation.

[AxeMental]

Why not just increase the penalties for public drunkeness and the legal alchohol blood level for drivers? Increasing the penalty is BY FAR the better way for the government to get a handle on any dangerous activity because it does not end up limiting personal freedom. If the Brits allow their nanny govt. to do this, what next? Its a slippery slope.

And P&P, your actually wanting to see the price of legal product increase in your country? Wow.

Throwing the book at drunks is how we got a handle on drinking and driving etc. in the states, its just too risky for most people to attempt.

As far as public fights spurred by drunks and that sort of thing, those problems run much deeper then then what they're drinking. I suspect happy hour laws won't effect the criminal element much. Stopping happy hour is going to basically kill the fun for alot of hard working honest and responsible Brits.

PS has this suddenly become a huge problem over there, or is this just the govt. finding some new way to flex its bicepts?

[The Icemaiden]

PS has this suddenly become a huge problem over there, or is this just the govt. finding some new way to flex its bicepts?

It has been getting progressively worse across the UK and is now at a point where some City centres are "No Go" areas for any right-thinking person on a Friday or Saturday night.

And P&P, your actually wanting to see the price of legal product increase in your country? Wow.

Many people in the UK want to see the price of alcohol increased, although not in licensed premises. As mentioned in a previous post, supermarkets sell alcohol at hugely reduced prices (less than a can of fizzy pop or even a bottle of water) but to do this they increase the price of foodstuffs such as meat, veg and bread- even in the "free market" this is nuts!

Throwing the book at drunks is how we got a handle on drinking and driving etc. in the states, its just too risky for most people to attempt.

Glasgow, the largest Scottish city, took a zero tolerance approach to alcohol related violence and anti-social behaviour a couple of years back. The result being a city centre that was once the most notorious in the UK can now be walked in safety at night. Yes you still see scuffles and fights but its nipped in the bud quickly by response teams of police officers.

The problem in some cities is that of police manpower. In some cases the police are so undermanned that they cannot divert resource to constantly monitor drunken behaviour in the city centres. Im aware that England which has a far bigger population (56million compared to our 5million) and larger cities encounters this problem and forces are stretched to their limits.

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Well, Axe, as Icemaiden says it's possible to reduce alcohol consumption through enforcement. What they do is they erect more CCTV cameras, put more police on the beat, hire more judges and lawyers and build more police cells. The problem is that it's all terribly expensive, so taxes have to rise, and extra CCTV cameras would definitely be unpopular.

Cleaning up Glasgow is one thing (and it was hugely necessary, too). But again as Icemaiden says, those solutions wouldn't work the same way elsewhere in the UK because Scotland's small. (It has a smaller population than London.)

I'm not a big fan of huge taxpayer-funded enforcement measures because that makes those who don't drink alcohol to excess pay for those who do. I do like the idea of increased tax on sales of alcohol, because that'll naturally cut binge drinking without hitting those of us who don't binge-drink in the pocket.

[Algolei]

Alcohol's a factor in more than half of recorded crime and anti-social behaviour in the UK.

Hey! That's a half-truth!!

Oh. Sorry. I thought you said "Algolei"....

[Werral]

I think cultural factors are a big issue too. In Italian supermarkets beer costs less than milk (milk from €1.50, beer from 50 cents) and unbranded spirits are easily available. Yet there's not the same binge drinking amongst Italians.

to be honest I think the main thing is that Italians would feel embarrassed about looking stupid "fare una figura di merda" ("cutting a shitty figure"), while lots of British and American kids boast about how wrecked they get.

It's also connected with shyness approaching the opposite sex without alcohol in the system - not a problem for most Italians.

But I find the current British Government overly invasive generally - can't buy contact lenses without documents, CCTV everywhere, emails monitored, can't switch off the smoke alarm in a shared building even if it goes off when you burn the toast, cameras in the rubbish bins, local council's using anti-terrorism powers to spy on suspected dog-fouling...

[AxeMental]

It sounds like you have some serious social issues that run deep (do you still have class levels?) Perhaps you Brits have your lid on too tight in general? Your problem isn't the cheap booze, its a screwed up population segment that for some reason think its OK to let loose with violence if they have an excuse (like being drunk) otherwise you'd see that sort of thing on the same scale in the USA and in other nations across the board.

I remember reading some studies (I'd have to track it down) where subjects were given drinks that tasted like their favorite alchoholic bev. (in social settings) but were in truth harmless. Many of the test subjects exhibit all the same behavior they would have if they had actually been drunk (including giddyness, rowdyness, violence, promiscuity etc. ). The point of the study was that drunkeness is largely a state of mind (in behavioral terms) and not always the real cause (its an excuse).

Anyhow, P&P, the freedom enjoyed by the lawful citizen should never be lost because of crime. Isn't that what you objected to with the patriot act (illegal wire tapping to help prevent terrorist activity)? If you want to curb violence treat crime seriously. As you've stated before, more cameras aren't the answer (as they are avoided) the immediate answer lies with punishment, and the long term answer lies with upbringing, restoring pride and good employment (if a person has a good job they generally aren't willing to risk loosing it). The best way to do that is to allow a free market system to flurish (and do away with unions as much as possible, as they breed discontent and friction).