[Political] Have we reached the "tipping point"?

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Flambeaux
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Post by Flambeaux »

JDJarvis wrote:Teacher salaries aren't really a problem in most educational districts it is often the vast army of administrators and clerical workers some of the most wasteful school systems employ, which can outnumber the teachers easily.
We definitely agree here. In my experience the ratio of administrators to actual teachers runs 2:1, and the salary differential after 5 years (usually including a master's degree comped by the district) is closer to 5:1.

This is part of why we homeschool. I still have to pay the taxes, but I don't have to participate in the farce any further than the state compels me to. :)

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Post by AxeMental »

Ditto here. I advise everyone reading this to take a look at the internet and see the state jobs that exists in education. When you find out you've been paying 1000s of state employees 50K + a year for the last decade in some totally make believe job requiring no specialized knowledge, passing pretend paper around (to look like there doing something) you'll flip out.

And the same exact thing is going on in local state and federal government in every department (our zoning office for example has 20 employees sitting around doing nothing all day...literally. Make believe jobs are created to do simple tasks and then huge salaries attached (usually based on how long you stay at the job and with excellent benefits). And if you look at composition of govt. employees you'll find a disproportionate number are minorities (at least around here) espl. those at the highest level. So it would make since they'd push everyone they know to vote to keep the gravy train rolling and vote Democrat.

We sent our daughter to a private Catholic School for 8 years. That school had 14 teachers, one principle, 3 secretaries, one councilor disciplinarian and two custodians. It has 400-450 students (PreK4-8th) many of whom their parents don't even pay because they can't afford to, but are Catholic.

The funding and record keeping is done at the diocese level and its rather a small number of people who actually do the administration task of coordinating and funding the schools. If not privatizing the public school system, they should at least imitate their more efficient system and save the tax payers billions and billions a year.
Last edited by AxeMental on Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks »

So why aren't you working for the government?

If it's so good as a government officer, I see no reason why anyone would want to work in the private sector. Then they'd need to increase wages in the private sector and the market would soon sort that out.
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Post by Arthnek »

A couple of points.

When I was working in the government sector as a police officer we were always under staffed. I recall in our city of 150,000 inhabitants the city paid for exactly five of us working as patrol officers on the graveyard shift.

We made pretty good money from my perspective back in 1991. It was one of the highest paying police jobs in California and I was making about $40,000.00 a year. As a young guy I soon learned that I could not secure a loan for a home at that pay level in a State where the average starting house price at the time was around $350,000.00 and soon rose to $400,000.00.

The police department was about the most conservative right wing culture you'll encounter anywhere. Even in 1991 while I was being told in official training to be sensitive to minorities and such (which I already was) off camera I was specifically told to stop and investigate -any- black person I found in the few predominantly white neighborhoods in town (our city was mostly minorities) after dark.

Where I live now state employee pay is really high. Cops now earn an entry level salary of $20,000.00 a year....to put their lives on the line every day. They make ends meet by having to work massive over time called for by the city because they are usually ten to fifteen police positions under staffed...because of the fantastic pay.

I used to work as a hiring manager in a non-law enforcement government sector job and despite federally mandated laws requiring affirmative action...and let's be sure we define affirmative action properly in a moment...there was tremendous behind the scenes pressure to hire whites and in particular white friends and family members of existing senior people in the division...

People who complain about affirmative action taking their rights away as whites (and I am white) frequently operate from the misconception that affirmative action specifically mandates that you hire a black or hispanic person or asian person for a job. It does not.

Affirmative action requires an outside review to insure that the percentage of whites in management positions or in government jobs does not wildly exceed the percentage of whites living in that particular community. It can still exceed the percentage of whites living in the area its just a safe guard against what HAD been happening in this country forever which was 100% white employment and active refusals to even review applications from qualified minorities for jobs.

Affirmative action does not then mandate that you have to hire or black or hispanic person. Let's not forget that white females COUNT towards affirmative action hiring practices. The only thing it mandates is that the hiring manager take into consideration the community make-up of the area where the office is located and try to hire some number of qualified people from those minority communities as well.

Finally...if you think that people are hired in this world based strictly on their qualifications you are fooling yourself. That has never been the case. In the past the major concerns were...are you a buddy of someone already in the system...are you white....are you a man...are you qualfied. Generally in that order. That's the reality.

Someone had to actually pass laws to force us white males to even consider allowing more than a token black or hispanic into positions. Personally I find this fact to be totally shameful for the white community.

I have absolutely no problem with laws that require a government office to try and reach an ethnic make-up of qualified applicants that generally matches the ethnic make-up of the community where the office is located.

To imply that the government jobs are filled with underqualified minorities taking good jobs away from whites is an error. Maybe this is the case in your one office...

But I recall working in a police department even within the so called progressive last ten years in a city where we had affirmative action in place...a city with a very large minority population in one of the most liberal states in the entire united states...

Out of a department of some fifty police officers we had exactly ONE black officer. TWO hispanic officers and ONE female white officer on the entire police department. The other FORTY SIX cops in town were all white males and about half of those guys were friends of family or known to one another or had a friend on the force prior to working there.

Heck...even I worked for an ex- detective out of that police department who had retired in a security job...and was had a great work relationship with him. Out of the three hundred plus applicants for the two jobs available in that department with at least HALF of the applicants women and minorities the two guys that were hired into those jobs were myself....a white guy who was a known quantity with a reference from an ex-detective highly placed in the department / retired and -another- white guy that had worked at the department for several years as a police explorer and was buddies with lots of the cops there and had relatives in the city fire department.

Ok. Rant off.
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Post by Flambeaux »

PapersAndPaychecks wrote:So why aren't you working for the government?

If it's so good as a government officer, I see no reason why anyone would want to work in the private sector. Then they'd need to increase wages in the private sector and the market would soon sort that out.
Pace Arthnek's experience, that gets into the rather sticky wicket of racial preferences and affirmative action in the US. While all municipalities are, de jure, equal opportunity employers, the de facto reality is that certain races and sexes need not apply.

In most places, preference is given to non-white, non-male applicants because of affirmative action. And the "old boy network" is still operative, but now you have lots of bitter non-whites in the decision making positions. This is especially true in the American South.

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Post by Arthnek »

Exactly.

There was this enormous testing process to get hired into the police department. I am fairly sure I did pretty well on all parts of that process but I know for a fact...

I didn't run faster than everyone on the physical test...
I didn't jump higher...
I wasn't physically stronger...
I didn't test higher...

Neither did my later friend who was the other white guy actually hired into the position.

There were plenty of black guys and hispanic guys and maybe even afew females that did as well overall or better than both of US...yet we got the jobs.

As far as I can tell...that's discrimination. We got the jobs because we had friends on the inside...period. That we were white males in a completely dominated white male police department. Pure and simple.

If I had been black and not a friend of that ex-detective I am 100% positive today that even if I had score higher on all aspects of the testing I would -not- have been hired.
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Post by AxeMental »

P&P: "So why aren't you working for the government?"

Damned good question. :?
Seriously, the system is corrupt. Its legal thievery, and a system that grows (for the reasons I stated). So, for every new govt. employee that is created thats not just one vote Democrat, thats a spokesman for the Democratic party. If she wants to keep her job security and her salary she campaigns for it every election cycle. Thats why the teachers unions are so powerful. They not only vote Democrat, they brainwash every child that goes threw the public education system to vote democrat. Same with college. Honestly, I'm surprised the USA isn't France by now.

In any event the US is heading that way fast.
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Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
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Post by SirAllen »

As an aside, it's a credit to everyone that 6 pages of political discussion has remained not only civil, but intelligent, insightful, and full of external citations.

Good stuff.

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Post by Algolei »

AxeMental wrote:Honestly, I'm surprised the USA isn't France by now.

In any event the US is heading that way fast.
Better put on your swimmin' trunks! :lol:

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Post by AxeMental »

:D that would be Speedos with matching berret.
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
Thomas Jefferson in letter to Madison

Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
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Post by Flambeaux »

SirAllen wrote:As an aside, it's a credit to everyone that 6 pages of political discussion has remained not only civil, but intelligent, insightful, and full of external citations.

Good stuff.
We do try around here. :D

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Post by Black Vulmea »

AxeMental wrote:We sent our daughter to a private Catholic School for 8 years. That school had 14 teachers, one principle, 3 secretaries, one councilor disciplinarian and two custodians.
That should read "principal" and "counsellor."

Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Carry on.
AxeMental wrote:It has 400-450 students (PreK4-8th) many of whom their parents don't even pay because they can't afford to, but are Catholic.
An education subsidized by the Church.

From those according to their ability, to those according to their need.
AxeMental wrote:The funding and record keeping is done at the diocese level and its rather a small number of people who actually do the administration task of coordinating and funding the schools. If not privatizing the public school system, they should at least imitate their more efficient system .
Mental, you do understand that Catholic schools are supported by an extensive Church bureaucracy that extends up beyond the level of the diocese, right?
AxeMental wrote:. . . and save the tax payers billions and billions a year.
Citation?

I'd like to save billions and billions of tax dollars, too, so I'd really like to know what specifically needs to be cut in order to achieve this. There are lots of project that public revenues could be used for, and I'd even like to see more of it in my pocket if possible, so please, show me the money.
AxeMental wrote:So, for every new govt. employee that is created thats not just one vote Democrat, thats a spokesman for the Democratic party.
Police officers, fire fighters, and public construction workers are public employees, but Mental, do you really believe these are strongly Democratic constituencies?

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Post by AxeMental »

Shaman, sorry about the spelling, I'm dyslexic and a few other LDs that make spelling and math a bitch (I often spell how words sound, and don't have the time to waste rereading it for errors (I really don't have time to be posting here in the first place, but what the hell). :wink:

the Catholic school system is funded by the Catholic network (reaching up to the top) who cares. What does that have to do with what were talking about (or the price of potatoes in Poland for that matter)?

Example, just because the Radio Shack down the street is ultimately supported by the national corporation (which helps those stores struggling), doesn't indicate that Radio Shack isn't run with extreme efficiency, and with very little waste (demanding the most from their employees, and paying them based on performance). Like the Catholic Church, Radio Shack can't just keep raising taxes to spend for inefficiency. Both the Catholic Church and Radio Shack are run like private companies. They have to maximize profits with limited resources (ineffective or unneeded employees are removed). Look, take a look at how many state employees exist for your school system (you should be able to find this stuff on the net), see how many are actually working in the schools (teaching kids or actually interacting with them in some way) and how many exist outside the school, shoving paper around and making lofty salaries. Now, honestly think about, how many people does it really take to run that system (outside of teachers and the schools staff), the people who oversee the schools, write a checks to pay for each schools expenses, take care of clerical duties, and help out with things like special needs, and school planning. If your honest you will see the public school system could likely save alot of money by getting leaner.

Then ask yourself, how does the public school system differ from a large privately run corporation? Are there more efficient methods that could be employed by the govt that you can identify? For instance, in the private sector, managers are given raises or bonuses for saving their company money while increasing productivity (the higher ups love it when you come in under budget and still get the job done). The govt. system often penalizes its employees for saving money by requiring they spend their budgets or loose that amount of funding the next year (one poster mentioned dumpsters full of supplies to be thrown out outside of some schools). I've heard horror stories of teachers taking home huge amounts of supplies that didn't get used instead of saving it for the next year (thats thievery in my book). The private corporation fires workers that don't work well, or who's positions don't serve a function. The govt. doesn't seem to really care if their employees are working (walk down to your local zoning office on a wed. for instance). And the more positions they can create the better, that just gives more power to the higher ups. Our government does make attempts to appear efficient to the public whenever possible (a veneer). But its fundamental structure is screwed up. Its not run on efficiency and innovation (as a large or small business in the private sector), its run on waste and stagnation. Why, why not? Its a freak'n monopoly with unlimited funding (as long as you can dupe the citizenry to pay up(you rarely see the school system saying "hey we got plenty of money, our staff is so efficient in fact, we've under spent our budget. Not even in the best of times).

The other govt. identities you mention have the same problems as the public school systems (to greater and lesser degrees). Perhaps, whats confusing is that police and fire fighting jobs appeal to alot of guys and gals that are x-military, or otherwise pretty driven individuals, who share conservative Republican ideals such as small government, low taxes, hard on crime, etc. That doesn't mean the system they work for isn't screwed up, and that massive waste can't be cut. Also, the leadership of these entities are often more liberal then their constituents (the police chiefs of most states come to mind).
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
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Back in the days when a leopard could grab and break your Australopithecus (gracile or robust) nek and drag you into the tree as a snack, mankind has never had a break"
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Post by TRP »

AxeMental wrote: the Catholic school system is funded by the Catholic network (reaching up to the top)...
Actually, it doesn't. Not in these parts anyway. Each school is pretty much required to pull it's own weight. If a school gives a tuition break to a kid, then it's up to that school to provide for that break. I'm not saying the archdiocese doesn't contribute anything, but it's a pittance. The Vatican certainly isn't subsidizing any Catholic schools that I know of in these parts.

One of my better friends in high school was a charity case. Not only were my parents (along with a lot of others) paying for his tuition, but the school even waived the fact that he failed the entrance exam. Oh yeah, BITD, you had to pass an entrance exam to enter a college prep Catholic high school. He got the break because he was raised by his mother and grandmother, who didn't have a lot of money and he was kind of a puss.

Disclosure: I'm a 13 year (K-12) scholar of the system.
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Post by Dwayanu »

I was at a Radio Shack last night, where a young lady helped sort out the confusion (missing or wrong prices, etc.) created by her peers. I wished her good luck for the holiday shopping season -- and she observed, "With a whole year to do it, Corporate decides to remodel in late November/early December!"

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