Wow. WotC really managed to F-up some art.

[hellbender]

You all sound like you would like manga.

...

Just sayin'....

Sorry, I like my women to look over 18. Manga is weird. Been to Japan, seen tons of it. Ick.

[TRP]

Hey, I'm all for the disney-fication of the world.

Lawyer's suing to make the trails in the Grand Canyon safer.

No kid walking out the front door without full body armor.

It makes the planet a safer, bright and shiny place.

[AxeMental]

"Trust in Alah, but tie up your camel."

Hey Wheggie, Golden Voyage is also my all time fantasy movie. It has, by far, the best collection of monsters ever assembled (that wood golem was awsome). Its also one of the best examples of an adventuring team (the thief like druggy kid ends up back attacking the Kalli and destroying it). And what a fantasitic evil magician.

Hey, if you've never seen a movie called "Attack Force Z" (an early Mel Gibson flick also with Sam Neil) about a rescue of a downed pilot during WWII in occupide China, check it out. The dude who plays GV Sinbad is this Australian special ops guy who's like a total psychopath. A strong believer in terrorizing the Jap enemy (he enjoys killing people with his hands).

BPoM, seriously, how is playing AD&D, or worse yet, posting on message boards about it regularly, any less geeky/nerdy then what these guys are complaining about. Lets face it, were all pretty much super geeks.

I agree with you though, that a product thats being targetted at little Billy in 8th grade isn't going to be purchased by mom if its got a naked snake chick thing with 6 arms and 4 boobs making out with a big eared elf (someone should hire PB to paint that) . That said, if its like the original stuff in AD&D, Iwouldn't see most parents having a problem.
It might also have to do with their planned animation of these monsters on the online game. They may be trying to stick with the same depiction.

BTW BPoM, what makes you think the demographic is little kids and not young adults or adults. Is that something they've mentioned (how can yhou tell)? I'm only asking because I haven't brought myself to look at any of it yet, and alot of the stuff appealing to adult men these days is pretty creepy IMO.

[Casey777]

Not sure WTF this went from a bad preview image to censorship and PC.

You all sound like you would like manga.

Ah yes, fanservice. Or anime like The Slayers, esp. Naga. Though I rather suspect some here would prefer ecchi (or worse for the demon-tit fanciers).

Oh and around here these sorts of forums, anime is much like gay, catchall codewords for all that is eevil about RPGs since pick your choice of When Gaming Started to Suck It.

[JamesEightBitStar]

Not sure WTF this went from a bad preview image to censorship and PC.

The thought of Uncle Scrooge playing D&D or even knowing what it is weirds me out to no end.

You all sound like you would like manga.

Ah yes, fanservice. Or anime like The Slayers, esp. Naga. Though I rather suspect some here would prefer ecchi.

Oh and around here anime is much like gay, catchall codewords for all that is eevil about RPGs since pick your choice of When Gaming Started to Suck It.

Slayers isn't really all that fanservicey, outside of Naga (who only appears in the OAVs and movies). It is, however, perfection incarnate of the fantasy genre and any DM looking to give their game a twist should mine ideas from Slayers.

Anyway most the reason I brought manga up is because it seems like there's a blatant double-standard here. People here are saying they hate how PC today's artwork is--in this case, using nudity as an example--and someone here once said they wished there was more black and white comics.

That's manga in a nutshell right there. Manga does everything people here are asking for, yet it's always treated as if its responsible for America's problems.

I can understand if people aren't into the big-eyed schoolgirl look, but there's even manga that don't do that. Try the Lupin III books by Monkey Punch, Takao Saito's Golgo 13, or just about anything by Junji Ito (and yes these are available in English).

Just sayin', is all.

[Algolei]

Not sure WTF this went from a bad preview image to censorship and PC.

The thought of Uncle Scrooge playing D&D or even knowing what it is weirds me out to no end.

Really? I'm a bit surprised he hasn't started posting on these boards, myself!

[JamesEightBitStar]

Really? I'm a bit surprised he hasn't started posting on these boards, myself!

If he did, he'd be one of those people who complains that D&D isn't "realistic" enough.

And he'd be able to say it with authority.

[blackprinceofmuncie]

BTW BPoM, what makes you think the demographic is little kids and not young adults or adults.

How old were YOU when you picked up your first D&D book? How old were any of us? D&D is a game, of course it's primarily targeted at kids.

However, even if the game were targeted primarily at adults, I don't think that really changes my point. It's a rulebook for a game, anyone complaining that it doesn't have enough T&A for their taste has a weird perception of the purpose of a rulebook as far as I can see. Again, this isn't about being a prude. I don't care that the nipple is there, but I wouldn't care if it wasn't either. Nipples, to me, do not constitute an integral part of what makes a game rulebook either good or bad.

[JCBoney]

I was 13/going on 14 when I first started playing, and big tits were right down my street.

In all seriousness, if D&D is S&S... S&S is about hacking an killing, taking the plunder and spending it, and busty women come in there somewhere. Many of my earliest influences in fantasy had Boris covers on them.

I mean, D&D shouldn't be pornographic, but it shouldn't shy away from the lustier side of its themes either.

[Melan]

Having seen what's in those books over the weekend... I have to to say the art is the best thing about 4e. Yes; the rest is really that dire.

[Malcadon]

In all seriousness, if D&D is S&S... S&S is about hacking an killing, taking the plunder and spending it, and busty women come in there somewhere. Many of my earliest influences in fantasy had Boris covers on them.

I mean, D&D shouldn't be pornographic, but it shouldn't shy away from the lustier side of its themes either.

I always thought of (at least the old school) D&D as a mix of High-fantasy (like Lord of the Rings), Sword & Sorcery (like Conan), Fairytails (like the Brothers Grim), and at the upper levels, Epic Poems (like Homer's Odyssey or Gilgamesh) and Mythological Plays (like Paradise Lost or the Divine Comedy).

Unfortunately, Wizards dont think like that! They seem the think that only High-fantasy and Epic Poems counts to what makes for a good fantasy, but in a hyper, modern way. At least the people who laid the ground work for D&D (we all know their names) were avid readers, who made good use of it. Wizards on the other hand, have not gone beyond the Lords of the Ring movies, and just tacked on the old stuff at first, then mutated into something that is extremely stupid and cliché into itself (what folks call Dragon Punk)!

Ironically, I jumped ships to the Conan RPG to escape Wizard's ultra-high-fantasy style. As much as the Conan setting is also a cliché into itself (yes, the gratuitous sex and violence, but some how it never feels gratuitous with Conan). At the time wanted to play a good game of D&D in which powerful spells and lots of magic items did not cheapen and foreshadow the experience of playing a heroic fantasy, nor be dependent on them. That is, the way you can solve most anything with the right spell, and how the act of being a Hero is cheapen by the fact that a heroic death or a noble sacrifice can be undone at the cost of a 5,000gp diamond (that nothing at the higher levels). Of course, he older games have the powerful magic too, but at least I can adjust or remove it without totally crashing the system.

[TRP]

BTW BPoM, what makes you think the demographic is little kids and not young adults or adults.

How old were YOU when you picked up your first D&D book? How old were any of us? D&D is a game, of course it's primarily targeted at kids.

My original group was between about 18 and 21 years of age when we first started playing D&D in 1980. And, yes, being hard-drinking, drug-using college students, our games were filled with a level of depravity that today would surely get our games labeled M for Mature. I'm not talking XXX, in that we didn't roleplay all the nuances, but yeah, our characters used drugs and slept with whores. In our sessions, that amounted to "We get high on pipeweed (or trip on shrooms) and pickup some barmaids for the night."

However, even if the game were targeted primarily at adults, I don't think that really changes my point. It's a rulebook for a game, anyone complaining that it doesn't have enough T&A for their taste has a weird perception of the purpose of a rulebook as far as I can see. Again, this isn't about being a prude. I don't care that the nipple is there, but I wouldn't care if it wasn't either. Nipples, to me, do not constitute an integral part of what makes a game rulebook either good or bad.

Of course it doesn't matter whether there are nip slips or not in a rulebook. This whole discussion is blown out of proportion, and has also derailed from the original OP.

I don't read anyone writing "WoTC *must* include nips!". Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. If I gauge the temperature correctly, then it seems that people are using this as *one more example* of how WoTC is just goofy. In this case, they fear nudity, for whatever reason (legitimate or silly).

I'm amused that a company that produces a game that revels in bloodshed and carnage of all types fears nudity. "Decapitate the bitch and throw her in the acid bath, but make sure that her chain mail bikini top doesn't slip off!!!"

[stranger]

I don't read anyone writing "WoTC *must* include nips!". Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. If I gauge the temperature correctly, then it seems that people are using this as *one more example* of how WoTC is just goofy. In this case, they fear nudity, for whatever reason (legitimate or silly).

I'm amused that a company that produces a game that revels in bloodshed and carnage of all types fears nudity. "Decapitate the bitch and throw her in the acid bath, but make sure that her chain mail bikini top doesn't slip off!!!"

I believe you hit the biggest point squarely on the head.

[blackprinceofmuncie]

I don't read anyone writing "WoTC *must* include nips!". Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. If I gauge the temperature correctly, then it seems that people are using this as *one more example* of how WoTC is just goofy. In this case, they fear nudity, for whatever reason (legitimate or silly).

If I recall correctly, neither Monsters of Myth nor OSRIC contain any pictures depicting female nudity either. Does that make "those OSRIC guys" goofy and "afraid" of nudity?

[stranger]

I don't read anyone writing "WoTC *must* include nips!". Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. If I gauge the temperature correctly, then it seems that people are using this as *one more example* of how WoTC is just goofy. In this case, they fear nudity, for whatever reason (legitimate or silly).

If I recall correctly, neither Monsters of Myth nor OSRIC contain any pictures depicting female nudity either. Does that make "those OSRIC guys" goofy and "afraid" of nudity?

It isn't a problem with it not being there, it is a problem with it being avoided or intentionally "covered up" and therefore giving the impression that it is "wrong" in most cases.