Why Manga are Better than U.S. Comics

[Dwayanu]

Yeah, but my thought was that it probably reflected a lack of material folks outside the hard core would want to read! Seems to me one must be fairly devoted to care about those continuity matters. The casual reader, I think, just wants a good story in the issue of Detective Comics or Superman or whatever he's just picked up.

I might be missing some points, I guess. I'll say again that I do agree that the business seems aimed to please a small audience (and collectors) more than the general public!

I got turned on to comicbooks back in the '70s, with a magazine I think was called Marvel Tales. It consisted entirely of reprints of old stories from Amazing Spider-Man. That was like a "time warp" going 10 years (or whatever it was) back, but moving on with each issue.

The closest thing to "reprint volumes" for other characters were the books Origins of Marvel Super Heroes and Son of Origins. I started reading other series, and learned bits of the "back story" as they came up. Occasionally, old stories were reprinted; I think maybe DC did more of that. Years later, there was a short-lived series reprinting the original (Lee and Kirby) X-Men.

It was like television before (or in our home, simply without as yet) the VCR -- only with fewer reruns. That didn't make the boob tube "unwatchable" as far as most folks were concerned!

Maybe it's a generation-gap thing.

Only expensive, limited edition reprints? Not the case with classic Marvel or DC characters. Dark Horse is doing Savage Sword of Conan selections, in a smaller-than-original (which was "normal" magazine) page size. Age of Bronze is collected ... and that's just the start.

The notion that the typical decades-running serial is supposed to be some sort of complete, well-rounded and internally consistent saga is ... unusual. Where did you get that?

(A completist should definitely not become a Perry Rhodan fan!)

And WHAT did you get at Free Comicbook Day?

[JamesEightBitStar]

I might be missing some points, I guess. I'll say again that I do agree that the business seems aimed to please a small audience (and collectors) more than the general public!

That's the main point I was trying to get across.

It was like television before (or in our home, simply without as yet) the VCR -- only with fewer reruns. That didn't make the boob tube "unwatchable" as far as most folks were concerned!

I remember Unca Cheeks ranting about something like this in the comic industry. Like me, he believes the way comics work is bad business. But he takes the tack that every issue of every comic should be a totally stand-alone work, or at least not so continuity intensive that you can't catch up readers with just a few helpful recaps. I agree with some of his articles and disagree with others.

Only expensive, limited edition reprints? Not the case with classic Marvel or DC characters.

Somewhat true with regards to Marvel. DC though, not really. Their Showcase line is cheap but it starts usually 100-200 issues into the comics it collects. The Archive volumes are $40 a pop for four issues, which is insane, but these are the only way to get the really old issues, short of eBay.

The notion that the typical decades-running comicbook title is supposed to be some sort of complete, well-rounded and internally consistent saga is ... unusual. Where did you get that?

I never said comics are supposed to be that. In fact the only frustrations I've expressed so far are:
1. High price point
2. The inability (due to said points, and in some cases due to a lack of any sort of reprinting whatsoever) to follow a series from the very beginning and therefore catch up on the continuity the way I was supposed to.

And WHAT did you get at Free Comicbook Day?

Lots of crap mostly. However there were a few gems in the lot. Okay, complete list:

All-Star Superman #1 -- this was decent.
Bongo Comics Free For All -- A Simpsons comic. It's pretty decent up until the last story, an attempted manga parody by people who apparently have never read manga.
Walt Disney's Gyro Gearloose -- Of all the ones I got, I think I liked this best of all. Contained some Barks stories and those were pretty good.
Jughead -- Was kinda decent.
Incredible Hulk and Iron Man -- basically a preview for recent comic lines of both characters. Didn't look too interesting, and I can't stand Marvel's post-2000 stuff anyway.
Sonic the Hedgehog #1 -- A reprint, with redesigned cover art to depict the updated character designs (which IMO are so much worse than what Archie and Sega were using in the mid-1990s), and recolored so that there's more shading than any sane person really needs.
Virgin Comics -- Preview contained three stories. I only read one, a "re-imagining" of a British comic hero named Dan Dare. Like most reimaginings, it sucked. And I've never read the original.
New Avengers: The Initiative #31 -- Didn't read this one.
Soleil #1 -- Seems to mostly be a preview of some limited serieses. Didn't read this one either. Actually this and Avengers were just given to me because the owner had overstock. I didn't want it.

[Dwayanu]

I would not impose a mold on all comicbooks, but I think it would be good for most to follow the dictum of Unca Cheeks. Stan Lee, IMO, mostly did so (and is an exemplar of the craft of story-telling). I can't see (e.g.) Blade of the Immortal consistently working like that except in much longer issues!

I think that in fairness there must be a distinction between cases in which you really are "supposed" to have followed a series from the very beginning and those in which it's a self-imposed obligation.

Golden Age runs are indeed prohibitively expensive -- even in reprint -- for most of us. On the Timely/Marvel side, I would like complete collections of the Sub-Mariner and original Human Torch. - sigh -

What the world needs now ... is more Carl Barks!

Thanks for the provocative essays!

[JamesEightBitStar]

You're welcome.

Barks eh? Well, this might interest you, though the Amazon page the article links to doesn't work for some reason. Actually I'm becoming a bit of a Barks devotee myself, and might very well shell out the cash for this set (assuming it actually comes out).

I kind of disagree with Cheeks' view though. I think the long, continuous styles have their place, and some of my favorite manga are of that stripe. IMO (as I've probably said too many times already--sorry if I'm sounding all broken record-ish) the correct response is to make previous chapters available so people can catch up. Even in cases where stories are meant to stand alone, I can't see a single reason this release pattern shouldn't be the norm.

[Abacus Ape]

Do most Manga artists own their own work? Are there big Japanese comic companies who own popular characters and put out comics by the work for hire method that seems to be the norm with the most popular US comics?

[JamesEightBitStar]

Do most Manga artists own their own work? Are there big Japanese comic companies who own popular characters and put out comics by the work for hire method that seems to be the norm with the most popular US comics?

From what I understand, the artist owns his/her work until the day he dies, and he can't really sign it away but he can make contracts that allow other people to dictate what is done with it.

There ARE manga that are written as work-for-hire, and even manga where authorship changes midway through a run. In the cases where the manga is corperate-owned, usually the manga is an adaption of a game or anime, such as Kingdom Hearts or Mega Man. Though there are manga that are creator-owned that still get hired out to people besides the actual creators sometimes. A few examples are Lupin III, Mobile Suit Gundam, and (I think) Neon Genesis Evangelion.

[Casey777]

some positive general trends in Manga: (aka why I tend to be more interested in them)

• affordable books in a compact form factor
• complete storylines that end, often with a preset limit
• easy to get into; no decades of backstory*
• cheaper per page
• found in regular stores
• much like RPGs vs. wargames, girls like 'em too!
• more than just comic book guy or otaku like them
• fast reads but each book has several chapters
• wide variety of storylines and genres, for young and old, male or female

* yes I realize DC & Marvel have gotten better on this with various intro books, lighter lines, and reboots, but that they needed to do that makes the point

[rogatny]

I sympathize a lot with the OP, even if some of the generalizations are a bit broad. My daughter is 5 years old. That should be bringing her into peak comic book browsing age...

[I certainly remember my first few comic books that I got at about that age... I had one of those Gold Key Pink Panthers, a Defenders (to this day, Dr. Strange is STILL my favorite super), a Legion of Super Heroes, a Hulk Magazine (to this day, the back-up Moon Knight story is STILL my all-time favorite comic story), and a Jonah Hex!!!]

...but go try buying a comic book for a 5-year-old girl! First of all, you have to take her to a comic book shop to do it. Back in my childhood, you could get a comic in any old quick-mart or grocery store. You practically tripped over them on your way in and out of any store where children would be likely to frequent. Now, you have to actually seek them out to buy one. But then, many comics have pretty much been priced out of being impulse buys any more.

Second, try to find something genre appropriate for a girl. You've got Archie comics (which ARE generally available at grocery stores and the like), Bongo comics (God bless 'em!!!), and if you're lucky enough to find them, Disney's excellent Gladstone Comics are still staggering along (a sad end to probably the most popular comic franchise of all time). That's about it. The "big guns," Marvel and DC, don't even try to market to younger children, let alone younger girls.

And on a related point... with very few exceptions, t's all super heroes now. Where are the westerns, the big sci-fi monsters, the horror, the space adventures, the military titles, the "girl"/romance, the funny animals, the swords & sorcery?

And on the super hero side of things, where are the short story anthologies and monthly guest star books? Time was, that's how you got to know the super hero world of the comic company. You'd be introduced to the new guys in Bold & the Brave or Marvel Two-In-One. Continuity be damned!!! Who cares if Bat Man is fighting the Joker on the Moon and the Thing is trapped in an inter-dimensional time warp. We've got to introduce the comic buying public to Mister Miracle and Deathlok!!!

I do give Marvel and DC props for the Essentials and Showcase line of B&W's. It's a good way to read a whole bunch of old comics cheaply. DC also has its nice Chronicls line for Golden Age comics. While they have only done Batman and Superman, so far, they recently announced that Green Lantern and Wonder Woman will be added to the list. (It'd be nice if some of the non-DC properties from the 40's that they now own could be added to the list, such as Spirit, Cpt. Marvel and Plastic-Man.)

The idea of keeping these old comics constantly available is still a relatively new one for Marvel and DC. So I'm going to give them a break as they tweak their formats and the content of the books. They've definitely made a committment to preserving this old stuff, and from what I understand, the fans have responded by supporting the product.

[Premier]

I have to say the original post comes across something like this:

All Eastern manga is inherently and categorically superiour to all Western comic strips, no exceptions. Yes, even the DragonBallZ level of dreck is superiour, since we're going for sweeping overgeneralizations. No, there are no good Western comics, at all. No, the idea that some (possibly Western) artists might be just plain simply telling better stories than others (possibly Eastern ones) has not occured to me. It's all about publishing and printing. Yay, chibi chibi baka otaku boy pika-pika!

Well, I've just shown your post to


Alan Moore,
and he's not amused.

I also gave him your street address. Sleep well.


He's a scary man.

[Dwayanu]

The Spirit is in DC's high-end Archives line; I gather that Chronicles is cheaper.

I've made those same observations, and wondered what the heck the publishers are thinking. As mentioned in an earlier post, perhaps the trouble is that too many in the business today think like the "adolescent boys of all ages" superhero-centric, collection-oriented demographic that's catered to.

It's a crying shame the Archie comics are such an exception. To me, it seems like really bad business.

[JamesEightBitStar]

I have to say the original post comes across something like this:

All Eastern manga is inherently and categorically superiour to all Western comic strips, no exceptions. Yes, even the DragonBallZ level of dreck is superiour, since we're going for sweeping overgeneralizations. No, there are no good Western comics, at all. No, the idea that some (possibly Western) artists might be just plain simply telling better stories than others (possibly Eastern ones) has not occured to me. It's all about publishing and printing. Yay, chibi chibi baka otaku boy pika-pika!

Comic strips? Who the flying dice is talking about strips? We're talking about so-called "real" comics, not that kiddie stuff you read in the Sunday papers! The stuff with the blood and guts flying everywhere, and everyone's cussing and all the girls are stripping every panel, while the goth dude in the corner mumbles about how much life sucks. Yeah man, those are comics for a REAL MAN! Go back to Garfield, wimp!

...

Please excuse the above. I was possessed by the spirit of a modern-day comic writer for a moment.

[Wheggi]

But you have to admit: Bloom County and Calvin and Hobbs were some of the most profound illustrated musings ever to grace paper. Much better than those Fruit Basket backwards books my daughter "reads".

- Wheggi

[JamesEightBitStar]

In all honesty, I kinda have an affection for Garfield and Peanuts. There's others I would get into because they sound interesting--Buck Rogers, Rex Morgan M.D., etc.--but they suffer from the same lack of reprinting or unrealistically expensive reprints as Marvel and DC (worse, in some cases. I'm only aware of one Flash Gordon reprint series, and that wants $20 for a 90-page book).

Haven't read Fruits Basket yet, but those hardcover omnibus they started putting out sure look tempting...

[Stonegiant]

But you have to admit: Bloom County and Calvin and Hobbs were some of the most profound illustrated musings ever to grace paper. Much better than those Fruit Basket backwards books my daughter "reads".

- Wheggi

As James said you have to throw in Peanuts and Garfield with that mix and I would also toss in the Farside as well.

(I am a huge Peanuts fan and collect everything Peanuts I can afford to get my hands on)

[JamesEightBitStar]

Also, you can't really compare stuff like Calvin and Hobbes to Fruits Basket. FB is a serious, continuing story. C&H is one-shot funny skits. Its comparing a Fork to a Spoon, really.

A better comparison would be C&H versus Azumanga Daioh, since in both cases they're collections of funny skits.