Elves don't have souls (?)

[rogatny]

I haven't cracked open DDg in a while so this might have been addressed there, but if both elves and orcs have spirits while humans have souls, what kind of kooky-cosmic connection is ties to both half-elves and half-orcs? It would seem alomst inconceivable that the humans could produce offspring with something that has a different cosmic origin.

The offspring of the divine/diabolic is all over fantasy, legends, and myths. And that's essentially what half-elves and half-orcs are; Half-elves are the offspring of humans and minor nature spirits and Half-orcs are the offspring of humans and minor devils.

[WSmith]

I haven't cracked open DDg in a while so this might have been addressed there, but if both elves and orcs have spirits while humans have souls, what kind of kooky-cosmic connection is ties to both half-elves and half-orcs? It would seem alomst inconceivable that the humans could produce offspring with something that has a different cosmic origin.

The offspring of the divine/diabolic is all over fantasy, legends, and myths. And that's essentially what half-elves and half-orcs are; Half-elves are the offspring of humans and minor nature spirits and Half-orcs are the offspring of humans and minor devils.

Right. However, from a AD&D game perspective, why does a half-elf take on the human soul over the elven spirit while the half orc takes on the orcish spirit over the human soul? (Honestly, like I said before, it doesn't matter to me either way, I am just wondering what the opinions of others are.)

[JDJarvis]

The rule comes from the 1e PHB, originally. Says so under "Raise Dead".

I don't know if it was carried into 2e. Sounds like the sort of thing Zeb Cook would've dropped, but what do I know?

, from 2nd editon PHB- " The priest is able to restore life and complete strength to any living creature, including elves, by bestowing the resurrection spell."

It's sort of funny actually - "including elves" would make me go..."what the heck?" if i had no clue about why that phrase would be there.

[AxeMental]

WS: "Right. However, from a AD&D game perspective, why does a half-elf take on the human soul over the elven spirit "

I remember there being something in Tolkien about the offspring of human and elf (a half elf) being able to choose between being immortal (as Elron? chose) or being mortal (but still with an exceptionally long life).
Maybe SC knows more about this, I wonder if when making the choice you chose between a spirit (continual rebirth) or a soul?

[Stormcrow]

I remember there being something in Tolkien about the offspring of human and elf (a half elf) being able to choose between being immortal (as Elron? chose) or being mortal (but still with an exceptionally long life).
Maybe SC knows more about this, I wonder if when making the choice you chose between a spirit (continual rebirth) or a soul?

The choice between mortality and immortality for Tolkien's Elves was given to a select few in Middle-earth, including Elrond (who chose immortality) and his brother Elros (who chose mortality). Any old Elf and Man can't just go roll in the hay and expect their offspring to get a Choice. The descendants of Elros (including Aragorn) are Men; the descendants of Elrond are Elves.

Tolkien never defines these as a distinction between spirit and soul; so far as I know this is purely an AD&D distinction.

[dcs]

Any old Elf and Man can't just go roll in the hay and expect their offspring to get a Choice. The descendants of Elros (including Aragorn) are Men; the descendants of Elrond are Elves.

Right. There are other half-elves in Middle-earth; when Legolas meets Prince Imrahil he recognizes him as one who has "elven blood in his veins." Not much is known about these other half-elves, though.

[WSmith]

Any old Elf and Man can't just go roll in the hay and expect their offspring to get a Choice. The descendants of Elros (including Aragorn) are Men; the descendants of Elrond are Elves.

Right. There are other half-elves in Middle-earth; when Legolas meets Prince Imrahil he recognizes him as one who has "elven blood in his veins." Not much is known about these other half-elves, though.

Interesting from a game perspective. Maybe they won't know which they have inherited until they die.

[rogatny]

Right. However, from a AD&D game perspective, why does a half-elf take on the human soul over the elven spirit while the half orc takes on the orcish spirit over the human soul? (Honestly, like I said before, it doesn't matter to me either way, I am just wondering what the opinions of others are.)

From a strictly game perspective, I'm not sure there's a real good explanation, and stands as a pretty good example of implicit campaign milieau assumptions being more important than game balance in 1e. If you're just using the PHB, I think half-orcs and half-elves are pretty even. If you're using UA, it's mind-boggling how much better the half-elf is than the half-orc. So, in either context, the half-orc's inability to be raised doesn't make much "game" sense.

From a campaign milieau standpoint, I think it's not too hard to justify... When the divine spirit of the elf mingles with the mortal soul of the human, it's "muddied" and becomes mortal. When the mortal soul of a human is mingled with the diabolical spirit of the orc, it is tainted and becomes damned.

[WSmith]

From a campaign milieau standpoint, I think it's not too hard to justify... When the divine spirit of the elf mingles with the mortal soul of the human, it's "muddied" and becomes mortal. When the mortal soul of a human is mingled with the diabolical spirit of the orc, it is tainted and becomes damned.

That is brilliant! I am ashamed of myself that I couldn't see that explanation. I knew I could count on you, RA.