Elves don't have souls (?)

[Lance Hawvermale]

Dragon magazine #33, Sage Advice:

Question: "Although the Players Handbook does not include them in the description of the raise dead spell, may elves and half-orcs be raised from the dead?"

Answer: "No, they cannot. They do not have souls, and therefore a wish must be used to bring them back."

[JamesEightBitStar]

They gave their souls to the devil in exchange for long like!

[thedungeondelver]

Dragon magazine #33, Sage Advice:

Question: "Although the Players Handbook does not include them in the description of the raise dead spell, may elves and half-orcs be raised from the dead?"

Answer: "No, they cannot. They do not have souls, and therefore a wish must be used to bring them back."

Nope; I think Gary's elves are less like Tolkien's Elves and a lot more like Poul Anderson's elves. Ever read Three Hearts and Three Lions or The Broken Sword? There's some soulless elves right there.

[T. Foster]

Deities & Demigods covers this in some detail. Elves and half-orcs (and everything else that's not a human, dwarf, gnome, halfling, or half-elf) have "spirits" instead of "souls." D&Dg goes into considerable detail regarding the difference between the two and what it means for your afterlife experience, but the sole practical in-game effect is that raise dead (and, IIRC, resurrection) only work on races with souls. I have no idea why this distinction was made -- I assume part of it was to serve as a counter-balance against elves' general awesomeness (at least until the level-limits kick in), but why they also extended it to half-orcs (who 1) are a poor-cousin enough of a race as it is, and 2) can be PC clerics (odd career-choice for someone without a soul)) is beyond me. It's actually possible that the restriction was intended only to apply to elves and that half-orcs were left off the list in the PH by accident, but what was originally an error/oversight became "canon" when Jim Ward wrote it into D&Dg...

[JCBoney]

(odd career-choice for someone without a soul))

Not really, if the PC is some sort of shaman or if he acts as a cleric to appease some really awesome and horrible deity.

But great answer all in all.

[Flambeaux]

IIRC, Tolkein's elves were not imbued with souls, either -- that was why the didn't die at the end of their mortal lives, but felt compelled to leave from the Grey Havens into "the West".

I also dimly recall that the faeries in Spencer's The Faerie Queen, and other foundational literature (the Norse sagas, etc) were soul-less within the meaning of the act.

What I'm attempting to say is that elves having no souls is a well-established part of the canon as it were, long pre-dating the advent of even the Chainmail rules.

[Lance Hawvermale]

Well, for 23 years I've been unaware that elves are soul-less. I suppose this is a result of having never used Deities & Demigods (we always played with gods of our own creation).

I like the concept. Was it carried over to 2E? 3E? Or was there a point when the designers decided to give souls to elves?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

The rule comes from the 1e PHB, originally. Says so under "Raise Dead".

I don't know if it was carried into 2e. Sounds like the sort of thing Zeb Cook would've dropped, but what do I know?

[Lance Hawvermale]

The rule comes from the 1e PHB, originally. Says so under "Raise Dead".

Sure, but I never knew there was such a detailed "backstory" behind the whole soul vs. spirit thing.

Along similar lines, elves have never been a huge part of our campaign world (we've had short-lived elf PC in 20+ years, and only one gnome). I don't know why. We've always been rather human- and dwarf-oriented.

[Stormcrow]

IIRC, Tolkein's elves were not imbued with souls, either -- that was why the didn't die at the end of their mortal lives, but felt compelled to leave from the Grey Havens into "the West".

That's not correct. In Tolkien, who typically refers to "spirit" instead of "soul," though meaning the same thing, the Elves' spirits are bound to the world and will remain in it until the end. Their bodies may be slain, but then their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos and rest until such time as they are reborn into new bodies.

Men, on the other hand, possess the Gift of Ilúvatar: when Men die their spirits leave the world and go elsewhere; no one is sure where.

Elves find Men's fear of death puzzling, as they themselves are trapped in the world; no matter how tired of it they get, they can't leave.

I also dimly recall that the faeries in Spencer's The Faerie Queen, and other foundational literature (the Norse sagas, etc) were soul-less within the meaning of the act.

What I'm attempting to say is that elves having no souls is a well-established part of the canon as it were, long pre-dating the advent of even the Chainmail rules.

Fantasy Wargaming presents another interpretation: everything has an Earthly form and an Ethereal form. A spirit may be conjured: summoned to and controlled by the conjurer. If a spirit is conjured into its Earthly counterpart, the being exists on both planes simultaneously, cannot be conjured by anyone else, has an automatic Ethereal link for performing magic, gains two automatic magic levels, can acquire double the normal amount of mana, and can vanish temporarily into the Ethereal plane at will. In Fantasy Wargaming, Faery is created through self-conjuration. All creatures of Faery are self-conjured. Furthermore, witches' familiars are animals into which the witch has conjured the animal's spirit. One can try to conjure oneself, but it is dangerous.

[AxeMental]

SC: "If a spirit is conjured into its Earthly counterpart, the being exists on both planes simultaneously, cannot be conjured by anyone else, has an automatic Ethereal link for performing magic, gains two automatic magic levels, can acquire double the normal amount of mana, and can vanish temporarily into the Ethereal plane at will. In Fantasy Wargaming, Faery is created through self-conjuration. All creatures of Faery are self-conjured. Furthermore, witches' familiars are animals into which the witch has conjured the animal's spirit. One can try to conjure oneself, but it is dangerous."

This is fasinating stuff. So, is this how it works then in AD&D as well? Is this stated any place in the 1E rule books, or just something assumed to be understood (a carry over from OD&D or CM).

And what creatures fall into the catagory of "Faery" in AD&D (for instance elves, pixies etc.)?

Also, wasn't their a relationship between elves and orcs in Tolkein?

[Stormcrow]

This is fasinating stuff. So, is this how it works then in AD&D as well?

No, not at all. I just feel it brings a good perspective on how "soul" or "spirit" can be dealt with in a game.

And what creatures fall into the catagory of "Faery" in AD&D (for instance elves, pixies etc.)?

I don't have an exhaustive list, but yes, those sorts. See the "Faerie and Sylvan Settings" table on DMG p. 187 for a basic list.

Also, wasn't their a relationship between elves and orcs in Tolkein?

Yes, but its exact nature is controversial in Tolkien-scholarship. Essentially, the Dark Lord Morgoth captured Elves shortly after they first awoke in Middle-earth, and twisted and corrupted them to turn them into Orcs.

The exact nature of Orcs is never revealed. Perhaps they're the twisted mortal descendents of those captured Elves, without the Elvish spirit inhabiting them. Perhaps they've got twisted spirits that returned to Morgoth when they were slain, to be reborn again later. (But then where did they go after Morgoth was cast out of the world?)

In D&D there is no suggestion that orcs and elves are related, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[AxeMental]

Thanks, I never noticed that list before.

SC: "In D&D there is no suggestion that orcs and elves are related, so I wouldn't worry about it."

Yeah, I didn't think there was (I always got the impression just the opposite). But its interesting HOs and Elves both singled out as not having souls, perhaps a slight refr. back to Tolkien. Though most likely not.

Oh, in AD&D does it state if animals have souls or spirits or something else?

[Stormcrow]

But its interesting HOs and Elves both singled out as not having souls, perhaps a slight refr. back to Tolkien. Though most likely not.

I think it likely that Gygax and Tolkien were drawing on the same mythologies when it comes to the souls or spirits of elves.

Oh, in AD&D does it state if animals have souls or spirits or something else?

Dunno. They probably don't have souls. I would give them spirits, though.

[WSmith]

Deities & Demigods covers this in some detail. Elves and half-orcs (and everything else that's not a human, dwarf, gnome, halfling, or half-elf) have "spirits" instead of "souls." D&Dg goes into considerable detail regarding the difference between the two and what it means for your afterlife experience, but the sole practical in-game effect is that raise dead (and, IIRC, resurrection) only work on races with souls. I have no idea why this distinction was made -- I assume part of it was to serve as a counter-balance against elves' general awesomeness (at least until the level-limits kick in), but why they also extended it to half-orcs (who 1) are a poor-cousin enough of a race as it is, and 2) can be PC clerics (odd career-choice for someone without a soul)) is beyond me. It's actually possible that the restriction was intended only to apply to elves and that half-orcs were left off the list in the PH by accident, but what was originally an error/oversight became "canon" when Jim Ward wrote it into D&Dg...

I haven't cracked open DDg in a while so this might have been addressed there, but if both elves and orcs have spirits while humans have souls, what kind of kooky-cosmic connection is ties to both half-elves and half-orcs? It would seem alomst inconceivable that the humans could produce offspring with something that has a different cosmic origin.

(As an aside, I feel a little wierd typing the above cause after all, we are talking about a fictional and fantastical role playing game, so I guess anything can happen.)