Sexism and Female PCs

[Mythmere]

*wears admin hat for a moment*

Let's not discuss further the role of religion in sexism, because we're at or beyond the border of what the site permits in terms of that discussion.

[PapersAndPaychecks]

*hangs head in shame*

[Mythmere]

It's acceptable to discuss sexism in particular countries, but not how theology specifically applies. We allow controversial political discussion, but not comparative theology.

Discussions of the Norse, Ancient Greek, Ancient Celtic, and other similarly almost-dead religions are probably okay, since they are a common fantasy trope and are largely historical.

Discussion may proceed along those lines, though I don't suggest it.

Historical sexism without reference to religion is an acceptable topic.

I hope I've clarified where the boundaries are, because I'm not trying to stop the thread, just to keep in the realm that's appropriate to the site.

[AxeMental]

dcs: "If it is cross-cultural as you say Axe, then it's not an "ism" but just the natural order of things"

Excellent point, and of course true. But there are many "natural" (being either genetically inherited or evolving due to similar environment) cultural tendencies that become incorporated into "isms". Isms, as I take it, are culturally reinforced and codified human rules and behaviors that support survival of the group (in a Darwinian since). For instance, sexism (the cultural rules that devide female and male roles) is part of many cultural institutions (not just religion). However, it is something that naturally occurs in nature as well. Cultures don't see sexism as bad, most see it as good (including our own) to some extent (opening a door for a girl, helping her with heavy books). Sexism is just formalized cultural rules for cooperative human behavior. BUt if we weren't here to label it an "ism" as dcs points out, it would still exist. If anything equal rights for women is the un-natural rules of culture which are contrary to differences in human biology. That said if the culture survives or thrives its effective.

[mistere29]

I've seen female players over the years get really P.O.ed and accuse the DM of being a pig just because their PC was approached in a tavern by local tavern thugs.

boo hoo Maybe they should find another game that better suits their feminine sensibilities, like mah-jongg.

Someone has been hanging around Gary too long.

Women play RPG's for the same reason men do, escapism. They don't want to deal with sexism at the gaming table any more than men want to deal with what ever crap they put up with in their everyday life.

[dcs]

Someone has been hanging around Gary too long.

Er, yeah, whatever.

If I drink beer or enjoy a good meal or a glass of wine, does it follow that it's because I've been hanging around Gary too long? If Gary and I share an opinion about something, it doesn't follow that I picked it up from him. If you think non-"sexist" gaming is peachy, does it mean you've been hanging around Zeb Cook for too long?

Women play RPG's for the same reason men do, escapism. They don't want to deal with sexism at the gaming table any more than men want to deal with what ever crap they put up with in their everyday life.

I'm not concerned with attracting women to my gaming table, or any gaming table for that matter.

[mistere29]

Lol. I figured you would take that wrong way dcs, but I was referring to the style of post. Single sentence and smiley, conveying the thought, “I have nothing to say but I want every one to know how stupid I think this is”

Anyway I suggest you re-read the thread so you can understand the context. Axe was not talking about attracting women players, but rather turning off women that are already playing. I was agreeing with foster, that the issue is part of the social contract of the game, and you shouldn’t force anything into the game that will make one of your players uncomfortable.

[mjudge55]

My thinking is this: D&D typically involves the congregation of two or more exceedingly nerdy boys or men to engage in the activity of entering a highly structured pretend world where they play the roles of elves, dwarves, wizards and warriors attempting to kill monsters and take their gold. It's great fun, but there are numerous levels on which the basic absurdity of it can be criticized, derided and mocked by the world at large, and it only adds fuel to the fire when this sausage party would appear to espouse intellectually barren attitudes toward women (or folks of color, homosexuals, whatever). It's embarassing.

While fidelity to a historical medieval world and its attitudes may be a valid goal for some campaigns, I prefer a game where stereotypes and -isms, when they come up, are creatively questioned and undermined within the tasteful bounds of the broadly conceived idiom.

Notice I'm not talking about political correctness or groupthink here. Those have no place in a quality game.

Just my thoughts,

-Matt

[Lord Cias]

I admit it. I like Xena and chicks in chainmail bikinis.

[dcs]

Lol. I figured you would take that wrong way dcs

The rollyeyes smiley all but guarantees it.

[AxeMental]

Check out the spread though. I figured everyone would think of/handle this the same way.

[TRP]

It's a game. Sheeesh. It's not a re-creation of any real events in the mundane world.

What room is there for any -ism in a game that's supposed to be enjoyable? Oh sure, I bet it's quite enjoyable to put up with the same behaviour in a game that one must deal with in actual life.

[AxeMental]

Q: "It's a game. Sheeesh. It's not a re-creation of any real events in the mundane world."

You would include guys learing at the hot elf chick that entered the tavern if it made the game more fun for all the players. You wouldn't include that in your game if you felt it would decrease the fun (for 1 or more players). I think thats the answer. AD&D is a fantasy reality simulation. If a person drinks too much they get drunk. If a hot chick walks into a bar half naked....its up the DM what he does.

[TRP]

Q: "It's a game. Sheeesh. It's not a re-creation of any real events in the mundane world."

You would include guys learing at the hot elf chick that entered the tavern if it made the game more fun for all the players. You wouldn't include that in your game if you felt it would decrease the fun (for 1 or more players). I think thats the answer. AD&D is a fantasy reality simulation. If a person drinks too much they get drunk. If a hot chick walks into a bar half naked....its up the DM what he does.

My comments are directed specifically at how PCs are treated, I couldn't care less how NPCs are treated.

EDIT: Deleted

[Stormcrow]

Since I don't play D&D as a simulation, women are at no disadvantage in my games.

The following excerpt from the Rune RPG sums it up nicely:

AXE-WIELDING WOMEN
The Viking women of real history played a powerful role in their societies, often dictating the length and nature of feuds and imposing their considerable strength of will on local politics. However, the egged their men into battle instead of picking up sword and shield themselves.

Since Rune presents a fantastical version of the Viking world designed to entertain its players, we have no problem allowing you to play female heroes. Female heroes are still an exception from the norm in our fantasy Norse society, but face no impediments to an adventuring career. Your character's parents and family may at first disapprove of her risk-taking and rule-breaking, but as soon as she demonstrates divine favor, she'll face no impediments to her continued career. When the gods anoint a warrior, no mortal may question their choice.

Female characters face no particular rules disadvantages. However, because the default warrior is male, we use the male pronoun throughout this book. We certainly don't intend to offend any six-foot tall, sword-swinging warrior princesses who happen to be reading this book.