Sexism and Female PCs

AxeMental · Post by **AxeMental** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:56 am

In AD&D I think its fair to say most DMs and players imagine a Midievil/fantasy setting. The vast majority of females, therefore, are walking around a as wives, protected daughters, or "working/party girls" I think most would find females fighters, clerics, MUs etc. to be somewhat rarer then their male counterparts. This theme is common to most classic Fantasy (Conan etc.), and from the artwork of TSR I get the impression its an approx. 10/1 ratio (men to women). So, the question is how do you handle this in the games you run. Surely a girl walking into a rough tavern filled with men is going to attract attention, and if their rude or drunk, it might be problematic.

T. Foster · Post by **T. Foster** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:46 pm

This is much more of a Social Contract (player level) issue than an in-game one. Everyone, at the most basic level, is playing the game to have fun and be entertained. Most female players aren't going to find dealing with sexual harrassment to be fun or entertaining, no matter how "realistic" or true to the genre it is, and probably aren't going to want to play in such a game. The question then becomes which is more important -- maintaining "realism" and genre fidelity or keeping the female players in the game.

(A couple of exceptions to this general rule are that "comic" scenes in which the female character is able to turn the tables and humiliate her would-be harrassers are more acceptable, but even those are probably best applied sparingly, and that evil characters are more likely to be sexist (and racist, for that matter) than good characters -- that's part of what makes them "evil," after all.)

This is definitely something that's best to actually discuss up front with female players (or even male players with female characters) to find out what their sensitivity, comfort level, and expectations are in this area.

themattjon · Post by **themattjon** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:54 pm

My only player right now is my girlfriend. Therefore, my world is populated by Red Sonjas, Xenas and She-Ras. Men end up taking the role of "Joxers".

dcs · Post by **dcs** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:12 pm

What you call "sexism" is what I call perfectly natural (except for the "working/party girls"). Having women as fighter characters is completely unbelievable. I can see female thieves and that's about it.

AxeMental · Post by **AxeMental** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:29 pm

I called it "sexism" because I've heard it referred to in this manner (I don't think it is myself as the reason isn't to put anyone down but rather to add realism).

I've seen female players over the years get really P.O.ed and accuse the DM of being a pig just because their PC was approached in a tavern by local tavern thugs.

dcs · Post by **dcs** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:52 pm

AxeMental wrote: I've seen female players over the years get really P.O.ed and accuse the DM of being a pig just because their PC was approached in a tavern by local tavern thugs.

boo hoo

Maybe they should find another game that better suits their feminine sensibilities, like mah-jongg.

Stik · Post by **Stik** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:16 pm

Anyone who truly feels that women fighters is completely unbelievable, you have very little experience with women, or with fighting.

I'm a veteran SCA fighter, and over the years I've seen quite a few female fighters on the heavy weapons field. Women are even more numerous in fencing, where body mass is less important than skill, speed and dexterity. They are not very numerous enough as to dominate either activity, but they are there.

Fighting is a largely male-dominated activity in the real world, but this is mostly a cultural issue. There is no reason why a fantasy game, in which the culture may be different from our own, cannot be home to fighters of either sex.

dcs · Post by **dcs** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:36 pm

The Israeli army experimented with women on the front line. They found that when women were injured, their male colleagues tended to fall back and try to help them rather than pressing on. This normal human behavior, but probably unsuitable for the battlefield.

This is why female fighters really going into battles (as opposed to pretend battles like SCA or fencing) is unbelievable.

Of course there are exceptions (like St. Joan of Arc), but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

I don't think I would find a fantasy campaign based on a non-Western culture very interesting. YMMV.

Mythmere · Post by **Mythmere** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:46 pm

I don't push sexism into a fantasy world. Why bother? It's more fun without. On the other hand, I don't make any effort to make the world politically correct; female warriors show up when I feel like putting in a female warrior. That's not most of the time, but when it occurs to me, sure.

I chose "something else" on the poll because I don't do it for the benefit of female players. I leave out sexism because for me it makes better fantasy to leave sexism out and focus on the adventure.

AxeMental · Post by **AxeMental** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:08 pm

I'm not saying a women can't be a warrior an MU or what have you (hell its a fantasy game), just that their likely to attract attention in certain places (as the typical girl walking into a tavern in Savage sword would likely be hit on etc.) due to cult. norms (a womens place in Midievil world and all that.

I think most girls experiance this kind of "attention" (to a lesser degree perhaps) almost everytime they go out to a late night bar in real life, and most would expect the same in a game that emulates reality (or a fantasy sword and sorcery reality anyway). Othewise your players will feel your playing a PC game. I actually have seen more girls appreciate the realism then not (its the minority with the problem). Of course it could be the DM as well.

PapersAndPaychecks · Post by **PapersAndPaychecks** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:22 am

Sexism in the medieval world arose:

1. Because the prevailing religions (Christianity and Islam) preached it;
2. Because of the medical constraints of pregnancy and childbirth.

1e assumes:

1. A different religion;
2. Access to miraculous magic that can heal any disease and cure any injury.

Result: Sexism is not realistic.

Likewise, racism arose in the medieval world. In a fantasy world, black and white would enthusiastically join forces because they're ganging up on green. Racism is not realistic.

Therefore my games are well rid of sexism and racism, and they would be regardless of any "realism" constraints because I find them a bit disgusting.

AxeMental · Post by **AxeMental** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:33 am

To keep this straight, first off I consider sexism as the unwanted attention by men on women (be it a pinch, unwanted glares, comments etc.). I also find this disgusting but it is a fact of every day life (hell go out tonight to any bar and see). Also, I agree its an evil act in an AD&D world.

I disagree with P&P about sexism being the result of predominantly religious/cultural pushed norms. Its cross-cultural from India to Peru to isolated hunter gatherers still in existance. Even in Matralinial societes. Its from size, strength, and child birth. Its a normal natural evolution (disgusting as it is).

PapersAndPaychecks · Post by **PapersAndPaychecks** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:39 am

Hmm. I'd see that as sexual harrassment rather than sexism personally... in which case my answer changes: sexual harrassment is very hard to stamp out and it would arise in a fantasy environment.

I tend to skip over it personally; there are some things that I just don't pay attention to (such as when the characters last had a bath, or visited the privy, or whether anyone wolf-whistles at the cleric's legs on the way to the tavern.)

dcs · Post by **dcs** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:44 am

If it is cross-cultural as you say Axe, then it's not an "ism" but just the natural order of things.

Christianity in particular and even Islam are philo-women (if that makes sense) compared to the pagan religions they replaced! And traditional Hinduism (for example) is far, far more "sexist" than Christianity or Islam. Women used to throw themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres.

I thought "sexism" was more the belief that men and women each have particular roles in society, rather than "unwanted attention" from men to women. The latter isn't sexism; it's unmanly immaturity. But if one gets rid of it in one's AD&D campaign, then why not just get rid of theft and murder as well, and have an AD&D Utopia where you roleplay to see whether you bake a pie with mincemeat or elderberries? That said, unless a player character (or NPC) intentionally tries to attract such attention, I would skip it as P&P says. For one thing, if women are in their proper place in a fantasy campaign, men will be more apt to treat them as they deserve.

PapersAndPaychecks · Post by **PapersAndPaychecks** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:49 am

dcs wrote:Christianity in particular and even Islam are philo-women (if that makes sense) compared to the pagan religions they replaced! And traditional Hinduism (for example) is far, far more "sexist" than Christianity or Islam. Women used to throw themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres.

Well, I take the point about Hindus, but fantasy is generally Western European in origin. The pagan Norse women were certainly more emancipated than their female Christian counterparts, though, if not equal -- there was sexual segregation of roles but womens' roles were not necessarily subservient. It's hard to tell about the Celtic religions but the prevalence of goddesses, including a goddess of war, is quite revealing imo.

Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Sexism and Female PCs

DM how often do you include sexism agains female PCs (ie NPCs harrasment) in your games?

Sexism and Female PCs