Elven Chain

[Matthew]

I'm pretty sure that's just a reference to the size of the armour.

Indeed, but then I thought... who would make elven sized plate mail anyway? That brought me back to the DMG and the mention that you need an elven armourer to produce "elfin mail", which of course seems to cost no more than non-elfin mail. Add to that the fact that elfin mail is not on the random treasure charts, but armour may come in various racial sizes and you have an interesting conundrum. My supposition now, is that "elfin mail" may in fact be a response to confusion over the notation "elven mail" or "elven plate mail", which originally referred to nothing more than size, but which was interpreted by readers familiar with Tolkien as more significant.

[T. Foster]

I think elfin mail is a combination of Tolkien and a post-hoc explanation for why elves in the MM are listed with AC5 and a 12" move (for which, incidentally, I prefer (and use in my OD&D games) the alternate explanation that elves have a base unencumbered move of 15").

[Matthew]

I also prefer the 15" base movement explanation as well, but I would not lend the "elfin mail" explanation too much weight as a post hoc explanation of that sort, since the Monster Manual also says:

The composition of a band of elves by weapon is given below: (They are usually in scale, ring, or chain mail, and most carry shields.)

...which would really necessitate more of an "elfin scale mail" explanation.

Still, I shall be on the lookout for further references!

[T. Foster]

Don't underestimate the ability of people to forget what they wrote 2 years earlier and not bother to double-check

[AxeMental]

I think elfin mail is a combination of Tolkien and a post-hoc explanation for why elves in the MM are listed with AC5 and a 12" move (for which, incidentally, I prefer (and use in my OD&D games) the alternate explanation that elves have a base unencumbered move of 15").

Isn't this sort of chain very expensive/next to impossible to buy? If all the elves you run into from the MM are in elfin chain I'd form hunting expeditions to bag elves for that alone. I mean, given the rarity of this armor I'd have to assume its just an assumed lower AC do to a tendency to have a naturally higher dex, plus secret elf knowledge. Perhaps some of the Gygax modules with elf random encounters might mention if they are wearing elf chain or not.

[Matthew]

Isn't this sort of chain very expensive/next to impossible to buy? If all the elves you run into from the MM are in elfin chain I'd form hunting expeditions to bag elves for that alone.

I think that is the response of most people, as well as the elf cloak and elf boots deal. Basically, if every elf warrior is wearing elf mail, boots, and cloak they are walking around with a veritable fortune, which is what makes the racial ability explanation more attractive.

I mean, given the rarity of this armour I'd have to assume its just an assumed lower AC do to a tendency to have a naturally higher dexterity, plus secret elf knowledge. Perhaps some of the Gygax modules with elf random encounters might mention if they are wearing elf chain or not.

The assumed armour class is not so much of the problem, so much as the movement rate of 12", which basically means leather armour or elfin mail. The text is pretty clear what sort of armour is worn by elves, though.

[AxeMental]

Isn't this sort of chain very expensive/next to impossible to buy? If all the elves you run into from the MM are in elfin chain I'd form hunting expeditions to bag elves for that alone.

I think that is the response of most people, as well as the elf cloak and elf boots deal. Basically, if every elf warrior is wearing elf mail, boots, and cloak they are walking around with a veritable fortune, which is what makes the racial ability explanation more attractive.

I mean, given the rarity of this armour I'd have to assume its just an assumed lower AC do to a tendency to have a naturally higher dexterity, plus secret elf knowledge. Perhaps some of the Gygax modules with elf random encounters might mention if they are wearing elf chain or not.

The assumed armour class is not so much of the problem, so much as the movement rate of 12", which basically means leather armour or elfin mail. The text is pretty clear what sort of armour is worn by elves, though.

Its really an injustice to the demihumans, to put off their cool stated natural abilities as
some sort of wacky magic (in this case quasi technology). They aren't humans remember, they are a magical race with strange natural abilities. If an elf can move at 12 with normal chain it could be because of any number of reasons we don't need to know. If Gygax had wanted elves to be pussy's that relied on their magic cape boots and armor to get those stats he'd have said so. I simply don't believe that if an elf were taken prisoner by a bunch of orcs (who removed his armor, boots, cloak and weapons) and he managed to escape that suddenly he would be the same (in a meaningful ways) as a human? Anyhow, these magical items are very rare, it says so in the DMG. This (and their cost) is proof enough that its the elf not the stuff he has on that "makes him" special.

One thing to watch out for: Beware interpretations that get repeated so much that many believe them "the final word", these sorts tend to stop pondering themselves. This is somewhat common around here.

One example, I disagree with the assumption that a stated monster damage relates simply to the monsters mentioned weapons in the description. An orc does 1-8 with his fangs and body or with a weapon that does that amount. If he uses a two handed sword he may do 1-10 if a dagger 1-4. The thing is, without any evidence other then logical deduction, some major assertions are made that really alter the feel of the game...and worse still they spread like wild fire.

[Matthew]

Its also an injustice I believe to the demi-humans to put off their stated natural abilities as some sort of magic. They aren't human remember. If an elf can move at 12 with normal chain it could be because of any number of reasons. But I don't believe that if an elf were taken prisoner by a bunch of orcs (who removed his armour, boots, cloak and weapons) and managed to escape that suddenly he would be the same as a human?

I agree with you there.

This is the sort of interpretation that gets repeated so much that many believe it to be "the final word". Another thing I disagree with is stated monster damage relating to the mentioned weapons. For instance, if an orc were disarmed how much damage would he do by using his fists and nasty fanged mouth (the same as a human?) No, the damage would still be 1-8. Bottom line, don't over think the game when it means weakening or making less special monsters, classes, demihumans etc.

I think you would have a very hard time convincing me that an elf does 1d10 damage with his fists. More to the point, if the listed armour class of an elf is not representative of his natural armour why would the damage be representative of his natural weapons? I suspect that the listed armour class and damage is simply the "average" expected, and is a reflection of the war gaming roots of D&D.

[AxeMental]

I think in an attempt at keeping it simple Gygax left this sort of detail out (I'm sure he'd think it was common sense based on the monster description). The drawing and description of an orc shows tusk like teeth, powerful clawed hands, the same sort you might find on a wild animal. In this case, the DM can make a logical conclusion that the damage 1-8 could be from a sword or from his mouth, claws, blows etc. However we also know that the orc can use a weaker weapon than what he could inflict with his mouth and hands (why did he use that dagger or club? Why not do more damage with his fangs? Who knows, maybe he feels more civilized that way, or maybe its a game element to reduce damage to the party while still throwing in that particular monster.)

In the case of the elf, its logical to conclude what you have suggested, that damage requires some sort of weapon in his hands (once again look at the physical description of these guys...they are somewhat effeminate wimps compared to the average burly human, perhaps even mistaken as a child now and then). But to use the logic that: because its that way for elves its that way for ogres, orcs etc. I think thats faulty thinking and counter to common sense (sorry Foster.... well....I think it was Foster that mentioned this once, if not whoops)

[T. Foster]

But to use the logic that: because its that way for elves its that way for ogres, orcs etc. I think thats faulty thinking (sorry Foster ...well, I think it was Foster that mentioned this once, if not...sorry again )

Yeah, I'm definitely in the camp that says if the MM says an orc does 1-8 damage it's because he's assumed to be using a long sword or battle axe or other weapon that does 1-8, and if he's unarmed or using a smaller weapon (like a spear or mace) he'll do less damage, so your memory is correct and we're on opposite sides of this one

[AxeMental]

I find it disturbing that I can't recall changing your mind on any particular rule for over how many years, yet you have convinced me to change my mind on several occasions. That, my friend, just doesn't seem fair.

[AxeMental]

But to use the logic that: because its that way for elves its that way for ogres, orcs etc. I think thats faulty thinking (sorry Foster ...well, I think it was Foster that mentioned this once, if not...sorry again )

Yeah, I'm definitely in the camp that says if the MM says an orc does 1-8 damage it's because he's assumed to be using a long sword or battle axe or other weapon that does 1-8, and if he's unarmed or using a smaller weapon (like a spear or mace) he'll do less damage, so your memory is correct and we're on opposite sides of this one

I believe its assumed the orc is armed with those sorts of weapons too, but I also think that damage is what Gygax intended for hand to hand for this monster.

[ScottyG]

I think the MM descriptions are a combination of generalized unit type info, and specific individual information. The listed AC and damage almost come off as being standard info for elf, etc. as a unit or something similar. It’s like some of the old computer D&D type games where you knew you were fighting a ‘goblin’, etc; it didn’t say what they were wearing, or what they were fighting with, but they had protection that was better or worse than other creatures, and did a certain amount of damage. It assumes average armor and a weapon, plus, possibly, some racial mojo. Saying that the damage should be what the creature does by hand is like saying the AC is what the creature has without wearing armor. To me it seems like there’s still some Chainmail in there and some early stage OD&D in the stats. I use the stats when I am winging encounters, but when I’m writing encounters, the stats look more like the brigands from the black chamber in T1-4 where each one (or a grouping) has specific armor type, AC, weapons and damage listed.

[Philotomy Jurament]

To me it seems like there’s still some Chainmail in there and some early stage OD&D in the stats.

That's definitely the case for the MM. The MM retains the original humanoid ACs, for example, even though the numbers no longer represent the same kind of armor, in some cases. (Which is why AD&D orcs seem to default to studded leather + shield instead of their original leather + shield.)

[Matthew]

That's definitely the case for the MM. The MM retains the original humanoid ACs, for example, even though the numbers no longer represent the same kind of armour, in some cases. (Which is why AD&D orcs seem to default to studded leather + shield instead of their original leather + shield.)

No way, man, orcs wear ring mail!