An Abysmal reading list

[TRP]

I need to read all I can, or care to, on the Abyss through an AD&D lens. Not including MM, PHB, DMG, D&DG, FF, UA and MMII, what else out there is *worth* reading. Gaming magazines, modules, supplements and good old fashioned literature are fair game. OSR stuff is okay if it's *really* good.

4-ish? years ago, a PC, Vitus, was sucked into the Abyss during an adventure his group was sucked into to rescue Good King Despot. Currently, we're playing DJ:Mythus, but the players have started banter at the table about mounting a rescue mission for Vitus.
I want to be ready to give it to 'em when they ask for it. My defense will be, "You asked for it."

[benjoshua]

On page 6 of Dragon Magazine issue #87 there is a Forum opinion piece which discusses how some planes (like the Abyss) have more levels than others.

https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg087.pdf

Page 8 of Dragon Magazine #380 has an article about the Abyssal Genasi:

https://rpg.rem.uz/Dungeons%20%26%20Dra ... %20380.pdf

This article outlines lots of Dragon Magazine articles about the Abyss and its residents:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Demonomicon_of_Iggwilv

One of the more extensive reference books on the Abyss is the Demonomicom:

https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/rpg.rem ... omicon.pdf

Here's another volume with Abyss information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiendish_ ... _the_Abyss

I am not saying any of this reading is high quality, but there are likely some valuable nuggets inside. Happy researching!

[gizmomathboy]

Don't some of the Gord books have stuff related to the Abyss?

I'm too tired and lazy at the moment to do a decent search.

[Kellri]

Yeah...the later books in the Gord series do have quite a bit...my favorite is the plane where the whole thing is one giant sentient blob that's continually eating and regurgitating demons. You might also look at Demons from Roleaids/Mayfair Games which has quite a few decent ideas for lesser demon lords. I know Mike Nystul is a cunt but that set has plenty of stuff you could steal.

[grodog]

I need to read all I can, or care to, on the Abyss through an AD&D lens. Not including MM, PHB, DMG, D&DG, FF, UA and MMII, what else out there is *worth* reading. Gaming magazines, modules, supplements and good old fashioned literature are fair game. OSR stuff is okay if it's *really* good.

My gates and planes bibliography should be useful as a starting point, Rob: https://grodog.blogspot.com/2017/05/the ... geons.html

I'll ponder further too.

Allan.

[simrion]

Would any of the Mayfair games supplements be applicable?

[TRP]

Thanks for the suggestions, folks. I've never read a Gord novel, and now there's a reason.

[Melan]

Would any of the Mayfair games supplements be applicable?

Not their Demons boxed sets. They are lavish productions, but they have a mediaeval European take on demons, which is not really the way AD&D portrays them.

[Kellri]

Would any of the Mayfair games supplements be applicable?

Not their Demons boxed sets. They are lavish productions, but they have a mediaeval European take on demons, which is not really the way AD&D portrays them.

I disagree. I certainly wouldn't use the bulk of the fluff found within, but several of the individual demons described therein are more than suitable candidates for pinching for one's own campaign.

[Finarvyn]

I'm not sure if this helps or not, as it's not an RPG book, but you might check out To Reign in Hell by Steven Brust. Brust has a neat way of telling the old story of fallen angels, but from more of the viewpoint of the devil being a not-so-bad guy. I've often thought about using this book as inspiration if I ever ran some sort of "planes of hell" adventures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Reign_in_Hell

[TRP]

I'm mostly trying to wrap my head around presenting the environment. The PCs ain't chopped liver at levels 9 to 12, but they would be, possibly literally, with my present idea of the Abyss. I need to dial that back, because willing to descend to the underworld to rescue a friend is cool of them. Foolish, but noble.

They wouldn't be without some divine protection, because they're tight with a 17th level LG high priest that they've been very good to. He wouldn't go, but he'd put in a Good Word for them upstairs. So it wouldn't quite be a suicide mission.

[genghisdon]

It can be as easy or hard as you like, really, and whatever setting/environment or settings you want, as each part of the pit(ie abyss) is infinite.

Is the PC lost 4 years ago in game or just in real life? hopefully the latter. I've run a fair number of abyss games, including rescues prompted by decks of many things & so forth. For that last, the PC's soul was in the clutches of a demon lord...I took inspiration from an old white dwarf ass picture & made up a demon queen of worms...but demon lords, princes & gods need NOT be major factors in such adventures AT ALL (well, unless they need to be, like that time). They can be, or not, in the background, or even if they are not, players will expect them to be & psych themselves out without much or any effort by the DM.

Point one/required: how do/can/will the players get there? There are many answers to this, and they tend to have a huge impact on the results. Most important is whether or not the journey TO the right place IS the adventure, a big part of it, window dressing, or mostly irrelevant. So how the layer in question is accessed is key. A convenient way for brevity is a major planar conduit, such as the river Styx (the AD&D version). Far less so is astral projection or plane shift into the first plane of infinite portals without knowing where they need to go or how to access the path when/if they do discover where to go. That way leads nowhere 99% of the time. Knowing where they need to go ahead of time makes this viable, maybe, but could still be some serious adventuring just to get on track.

out of infinite infinities (albeit all of them awful) the ball is really in your court...what do you want for the adventure? anything can go. Under"water" adventure, with "water" being acid? compounded with planar magic chaos/weakness, that's a rough idea indeed, but the point is that whatever wanted works. a jungle hell? frozen wasteland? it is all waiting. One doesn't need to fall into the lazy trap of layers of uniform themes either...the acid ocean I started with could be the size of the Pacific & still just be a minor, or obscure feature of a given layer.

AD&D handles clerics & druids terribly on the planes...I suggest you do not do that, although hard to reach & deep places of the abyss probably are quite cut off. Agents are probably available for spells pretty much most places (L1-4 spells rather than just 1-2). For the most part, planescape/2e AD&D is just better for extra planar rules than 1e, but look them over & pick as suits. I suggest being less of a rat bastard/crock king than some old school folks were...frankly, they tended to be dumb & used overkill, sadly. But change to magic IS important, and so is the overall weakening of items.

Guides, for good & ill, are often pretty important & required in numbers for planar Odysseys

On sources...well, there are non D&D stuff worth a read, but I wouldn't recommend any of it for an AD&D DM on their early outings into AD&D planes. I can do more when I have a better handle on what you need or want.

Can you give much more details on the "mission"? They are L9-12 (traditionally the levels when planar adventures begin). Have they any planar travel experience (astral, say)? How exactly did one of them fall into the abyss? is there any ideas on where in the abyss? are there any foes of their in the abyss? are those foes involved at all? do you have ideas of the environment(s) or monsters you want to use? how long has the PC been there? any ideas on how they will go, and is the journey to be an Odyssey of adventure, or is it to be more a site/location exploration? What rules are the characters under, and their gear/power levels? Race/class/alignment/etc. Deities for clerics is important info. Do they have access to info, sages, and so forth? Given their levels I assume their best is plane shift & not astral projection, but they could lack either (very bad) or perhaps have magic items for travel?

[Landifarne]

Although most of Feist's books deserve the bad reputations they have, a lot of the material he presents in Into a Dark Realm (the Desati of the 2nd realm and their relationships with the lower realms) and Wrath of a Mad God (Demon Lord Maarg and demonic motivation to move from lower realms to higher realms) is not bad. Feist was stealing ideas from D&D long before the likes of J.K. Rowlings and Steven Erikson; there are nuggets to be gleaned.

EDIT:

Feist portrays hell as having seven levels, mirroring heaven. As one descends from the earthly realm (level 0) into the 1st layer of hell he becomes uncomfortable, things are more chaotic, flora and fauna are different, but still recognizeable (Pandora-like, but without being nature centric). The second layer is dominated by the Desati who rule 12 planets/sublevels. They are grey versions of Gary's Abat-Dolor demons (Graz'zt and the Dark Princess). Abat-Dolor society could be wholly delineated by Feist's characterizations of the Desati if you wanted to do so. There was a battle scene at the beginning of one of the books that described the Desati conquering other realms in the 1st or 2nd layer (wasn't bad). Desati magic was necromantic in nature.

The Desati don't want to expand downwards, as higher level beings' powers weaken as they descend. It also becomes more difficult to physically adjust. Feist had it that a being could go down about two levels before needing to make physical adjustments to survive (air is poisonous, caustic and dense, temperatures are extreme, etc.), but lower creatures gained more power by going upwards (consuming life/souls gave them more abilities)...their motivation for attempting to conquer higher-layer realms.

So a human would not be able to descend to the third layer without a lot of magical aid and demons were native to the 4th and 5th layers. The Abat-Dolor equivalents were native to the 2nd layer.

Below the demonic layers were the Dread (void, or negative energy creatures) in the 6th realm. He also implied that Cthulhic-type entities were in the 6th or 7th layers, beyond the ken of normal gods.

EDIT 2:
Giving it a bit more thought, you could easily flesh out the domains of the Abat-Dolor based upon the writings of Gygax (Dance of Demons, Come Endless Darkness...both easily found on pdf from google searches) and Feist (the books I mentioned above). Gygax gives good descriptions of their domains, and of Graz'zt's and Elazalag's retinues. Feist's Desati could easily be substituted in for Elazalag's subjects, including her realm's hierarchy. Gary designed the Abat Dolor to be a bridge/transition between humans and the Abyss, and Feist was obviously ripping off Gygax's ideas, so that may be a good place to start.

[genghisdon]

I do not recall all that much from Gygax on the abyss (the place) from Gord, but maybe I forget. He did have lots more fiends to fight, though. T foster(?)/Trent, among others, has stats for them. Let's see...
https://mystical-trash-heap.blogspot.com/2018/02/