Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[JCBoney]

So, assuming that what I posted above is the truth, is Luke going to face his own redemption as his father did? Anakin ultimately believed that the Jedi were a bunch of evil liars. That gets proven to an extent, so maybe Luke was right in believing it was time for the Jedi to die.

[Falconer]

- Ben and Yoda lied about his parentage (resulting in him kissing his sister a couple of times).
- He had to use the Dark Side in order to defeat his father, and he didn't fall in.

Do you believe that the OT within its own narrative and storytelling mode was to be understood this way? I would say RotJ handled both points a bit awkwardly, but, the intended message was pretty clear. In saying, “I am a Jedi, like my father before me,” Luke accepts Ben’s point of view that Anakin Skywalker is not Darth Vader, and rejects the Dark Side which had sorely tested him. He accepts the mantle of the Jedi, as well as Yoda’s charge to pass on what he had learned.

[TRP]

This is SW grown up, where the consequences of Ben and Yoda's actions have born a bitter fruit. Once Luke defeats Vader, he has nowhere to go since that's the path for which he was groomed. I'd be bitter too.

And don't forget Yoda's curtain call, wherein he laughs at Luke for maintaining, even as a hermit, the Jedi texts. "Fucks to you, Luke. Yes. Hmmmm. Always bullshit was the Jedi monopoly of the Force. Hehehehe."

Anyone who knows the last episode of Buffy should see what's coming.

[TRP]

Speaking of the Jedi texts. Didn't I spot them at the end of the movie when someone grabs a blanket from a storage bin in the Millenium Falcon? I could swear there was a set of old looking books in that bin. What else could they be?

[DungeonMonkey]

The difference should be made that 30-40 years of experience after RotJ should have made Luke more wiser, not regress into the character as portrayed in TLJ. This is what Mark Hamill railed about this whole time before the movie came out. (...and possibly silenced/retraction with Mouse Money...)

But really, should he? Every single thing he's learned about the Jedi or from the Jedi turned out to be a lie or shambles.

- Ben and Yoda lied about his parentage (resulting in him kissing his sister a couple of times).
- He had to use the Dark Side in order to defeat his father, and he didn't fall in.
- His Jedi training program went to shit because of one student.

If anything, he's right where he should be... isolated from everything to which he once clinged and bitter.

This is SW grown up, where the consequences of Ben and Yoda's actions have born a bitter fruit. Once Luke defeats Vader, he has nowhere to go since that's the path for which he was groomed. I'd be bitter too.

This is revisionist nonsense. At the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke is content. Vader was defeated in the most literal sense of having been bested in combat, but that's not the part that matters; what matters is that Anakin was redeemed. Anakin's, Yoda's, and Obi Wan's shades are present smiling upon Luke and the others on Endor at the end. Luke is not remotely bitter with respect to them.

Luke may have succumbed to anger momentarily in the heat of battle, but true to the Jedi code, he refused to kill his father and refused to serve the Emperor. The Emperor tried to kill Luke because Luke would not embrace the Dark Side, and Vader turned from the Dark Side to save his son. Lucas got a lot wrong in later years, but he got something very right when he altered the title of the third film from Revenge of the Jedi to Return of the Jedi.

The third film of the original trilogy ends in joy, and not just for Luke, but for a galaxy that will see the return of the Jedi order. All this angst-ridden bullshit comes after, in subsequent films made by screwheads that have no idea what made the original trilogy great.

[Geoffrey]

The only aspects of the movie that for me have that "Star Wars feel" are some of the visuals on the salt planet, Crait. I liked the red rooster tails and explosions on the planet's white surface, and I loved the Millennium Falcon swooping through that vast crystalline cave system. Now that is magic. Everything else I found ridiculous or mediocre.

[bobjester]

The only aspects of the movie that for me have that "Star Wars feel" are some of the visuals on the salt planet, Crait. I liked the red rooster tails and explosions on the planet's white surface, and I loved the Millennium Falcon swooping through that vast crystalline cave system. Now that is magic. Everything else I found ridiculous or mediocre.

I'll see it for that then, not the revisionist bullshit (see Dungeon Monkey's excellent post above).

In fact, I should break out the Kenner dolls and start writing up my own SW fan-fic based on Jawa economics and society on Tatooine. Y'know the kind of stories that me & my friends started back when we were 10 in 77.

It's truer to the original than this modern bullshit.

[JCBoney]

Do you believe that the OT within its own narrative and storytelling mode was to be understood this way?

I believe these are two holes Lucas fell in while trying to expand upon the original movie. That's the singular problem with the original trilogy... it unfolds piece by piece because Lucas had no initial plotline and was making stuff up as he went along.

I would say RotJ handled both points a bit awkwardly, but, the intended message was pretty clear. In saying, “I am a Jedi, like my father before me,” Luke accepts Ben’s point of view that Anakin Skywalker is not Darth Vader, and rejects the Dark Side which had sorely tested him. He accepts the mantle of the Jedi, as well as Yoda’s charge to pass on what he had learned.

No, he never saw a difference between the two men. He repeatedly stated he believed Vader still had good in him; he believed Anakin Skywalker "had only forgotten" that.

As to my original point: Lucas glosses over Luke's original angst about the revelation concerning his father's history when it should have been developed. Yes, at the end he bears them no malice because he succeeded in rescuing his father from the Dark Side even though both Ben and Yoda said it couldn't be done.

[JCBoney]

This is revisionist nonsense.

'Tis not.

At the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke is content.

He's content because he rescued his father from the Dark side to the contrary of what Ben and Yoda said. They pushed him to destroy Vader because they believed he was "more machine now then man... twisted and evil." Luke sensed differently.

Vader was defeated in the most literal sense of having been bested in combat, but that's not the part that matters; what matters is that Anakin was redeemed. Anakin's, Yoda's, and Obi Wan's shades are present smiling upon Luke and the others on Endor at the end. Luke is not remotely bitter with respect to them.

See my above post. And Vader was whipped by a powerful Jedi who used his anger and fear for Leia to his advantage. In short, Luke took a walk on the dark side for that brief bit, but rejected it... once again negating what Yoda said about the dark side.

The third film of the original trilogy ends in joy, and not just for Luke, but for a galaxy that will see the return of the Jedi order. All this angst-ridden bullshit comes after, in subsequent films made by screwheads that have no idea what made the original trilogy great.

Quote me one line where anyone gives a damn about the Jedi Order. The closest you can get is Yoda's plea to "pass on what you have learned" and then he says "there's another Skywalker." Now, he didn't just change the subject. He meant for Leia to be trained as well because only the children of Skywalker are strong enough to take down Vader and the Emperor.

[DungeonMonkey]

Do you believe that the OT within its own narrative and storytelling mode was to be understood this way?

I believe these are two holes Lucas fell in while trying to expand upon the original movie. That's the singular problem with the original trilogy... it unfolds piece by piece because Lucas had no initial plotline and was making stuff up as he went along.

I would say RotJ handled both points a bit awkwardly, but, the intended message was pretty clear. In saying, “I am a Jedi, like my father before me,” Luke accepts Ben’s point of view that Anakin Skywalker is not Darth Vader, and rejects the Dark Side which had sorely tested him. He accepts the mantle of the Jedi, as well as Yoda’s charge to pass on what he had learned.

No, he never saw a difference between the two men. He repeatedly stated he believed Vader still had good in him; he believed Anakin Skywalker "had only forgotten" that.

As to my original point: Lucas glosses over Luke's original angst about the revelation concerning his father's history when it should have been developed. Yes, at the end he bears them no malice because he succeeded in rescuing his father from the Dark Side even though both Ben and Yoda said it couldn't be done.

Lucas did not gloss over the angst, he simply did not include it in the story, period. The angst you're describing just is not in the original trilogy and quite deliberately so. The Jedi could no more return if Luke gave in to despair and bitterness than if he joined the Emperor.

Luke is anguished to learn that Vader is is father and possibly succumbs to despair momentarily in Cloud City after their duel in The Empire Strikes Back. But even after learning that Obi Wan and Yoda had concealed Vader's identity from him, what does he do? He returns to Yoda to complete his training as a Jedi, which is hardly consistent with the thesis that he's bitter over the concealment or regards the Jedi order as a lie.

And Obi Wan's and Yoda's belief that Vader cannot be saved is ultimately mistaken, but there's no reason to think it is a lie (i.e., that they know he could be saved but are concealing that fact for some reason).

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. The original trilogy's content is what it is. Han shot first no matter what edits were subsequently made; and Luke was triumphant, not angst-ridden, not bitter, not broken.

[bobjester]

You are under the assumption that using the Force for Good or Evil is all for nothing, which is the direct opposite of the OT.

Using your power, no matter what it actually IS - for Good was the message. Turning back from the precipice in time to Redeem a fallen character is GOOD.

Using an entire chapter to say that nothing matters does not belong in a Star Wars story. Even Rogue 1 was about sacrificing yourself for the greater Good, which is considered to be noble in and of itself.

TFA started out great with a lot of questions that could have led to something epic in TLJ.

The only thing TLJ did was completely destroy an entire Faith in a religion that General Tagge alluded to in SW: that Faith in religion is obsolete and unnecessary and does not produce results (stolen plans).

TLJ continues this rhetoric assuming that the side of good (Rey) doesn't need to have discipline or train, and those who are disciplined and have trained their entire lives (Kylo) are actually evil and lost lost lost. This is so far from truth that it is ridiculous to think that anyone would actually believe this is in any way makes a believable story about hope, faith, discipline, and redemption.

Even pink-haired "the Force is female" Laura Dern sacrificed herself out of last-minute desperation, not any sense of self-sacrifice for the greater good.

THAT was the wrong message, and that is the story that Rian Johnson & Kathleen Kennedy pushed in TLJ.

[rogatny]

It's pretty much the ultimate stereotypical Baby Boomer conceit - at least from the Gen Xers' perspectives - that they can get away with neglecting and lying to their children with no consequence at all so long as it was in the service of their greater good. That's pretty much the central theme to all the great music of the late 80s/early 90s from Nine Inch Nails to Nirvana to Guns n' Roses to NWA to Public Enemy and etc., etc.... "You've been lying to us, everything is all screwed up."

The conversation here between DungeonMonkey and JC Boney pretty much mirrors Ben's conversation with Luke in Return of the Jedi and is essentially the larger conversation Conway was talking about in a nutshell.

RotJ came out in 1984. The Boomers were looking about, in their late 30s, with a nice job, a couple kids and another on the way, content and pleased with themselves, saying, "We did it. We saved the world." The Last Jedi came out now with the Gen Xers in their early 40s looking about and saying, "You know you guys really did leave a lot of crap for us to clean up after you. I thought you said you fixed this shit." The Boomer just shrugs his shoulders and says, "Don't forget to pay my pension."

[Welleran]

Han shot first

No, ONLY Han shot. Let’s be accurate!

[EOTB]

The lesson of Star Wars is: "be careful what you wish for, it might come true" remains as valid today as it ever was.

Before the late 90s, the unknowns of the SW universe/timeline were whatever someone wanted them to be. After that there could be only winners and losers.

[JCBoney]

You are under the assumption that using the Force for Good or Evil is all for nothing, which is the direct opposite of the OT.

Using your power, no matter what it actually IS - for Good was the message. Turning back from the precipice in time to Redeem a fallen character is GOOD.

Using an entire chapter to say that nothing matters does not belong in a Star Wars story. Even Rogue 1 was about sacrificing yourself for the greater Good, which is considered to be noble in and of itself.

TFA started out great with a lot of questions that could have led to something epic in TLJ.

The only thing TLJ did was completely destroy an entire Faith in a religion that General Tagge alluded to in SW: that Faith in religion is obsolete and unnecessary and does not produce results (stolen plans).

TLJ continues this rhetoric assuming that the side of good (Rey) doesn't need to have discipline or train, and those who are disciplined and have trained their entire lives (Kylo) are actually evil and lost lost lost. This is so far from truth that it is ridiculous to think that anyone would actually believe this is in any way makes a believable story about hope, faith, discipline, and redemption.

Even pink-haired "the Force is female" Laura Dern sacrificed herself out of last-minute desperation, not any sense of self-sacrifice for the greater good.

THAT was the wrong message, and that is the story that Rian Johnson & Kathleen Kennedy pushed in TLJ.

WARNING! DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

The OT was very clear on the difference between light and dark use of the force (unless Ben and Yoda were lying about that too). It treats the light side and dark side as specific "places to be" each with a path.

For example, Yoda taught “You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”

Did Luke look calm and at peace when he went ape shit on Vader? Then there's this:

“Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.”

Yeah, that's more like Luke. Only when he saw Vader's artificial limb did he realize he was becoming his father... and then he quit fighting.