Psionic vs. non-psionic.

[thedungeondelver]

It seems to me that some of the biggest threats in the game in terms of powers, abilities and hit dice have psionic powers - devils, demons, demigods, etc. Most of them rate a psionic blast at the very least.

How do you guys as a DM manage this? Do you discount their psionic power entirely? Or do you simply decide that if a party is tough enough to combat something or someone so capable that they'll just have to deal with the consequences?

Or do you rule that the creature(s) in question are loathe to use their powers except against psionic foes?

[TRP]

They just gotta deal.

[EOTB]

Yep...you deal.

[Matthew]

I generally ignore references to psionic powers, or else replace them with some sort of innate ability.

[Kellri]

Me too. I don't like the psionics rules at all and don't use them. The tougher monsters like demons and devils that have psionic abilities don't really need them IMO. If the DM makes full-use of their innate spell-like abilities then they are tough enough. If I wanted to make them even tougher I would give them spellcasting abilities at a level equal to their HD. A demon able to fling a fireball or two is going to be a lot more challenging than one with a psionic blast.

[AxeMental]

double post

[AxeMental]

Psionics was a cool idea terribly botched (as I stated before). I'd love to see them redone top to bottom.

To simplify the concept and make it jive with the game better I have PCs save versus wands, and give stackable bonuses for high wis and intel (+1 per point above 15) the attackers wis and intel are not a factor. The effects I try to make feel unique and interesting (rather then announcing to the players whats going on). I prefer "you suddenly notice blood oozing out of your nose, develop double vision and a terrible headache" "you suddenly feel to frightened to move", "you've lost any desire to fight and crumble to the ground" etc. etc.. The 70s movie Scanners is how I picture this shit going down anyway. I've always preferred a less rigid sort of power (with some guidelines that keep it limited in scope, breaking it down to a physical attack or a type of persuasion ("I'm a friend, your too scared to move, etc.).


I have no problem with "other worldly" monsters having psyionics (including devils, demons etc.) as it makes them seem more bizarre, strange, WTF (not of this Earth), I also like psionics for monsters that are designed to make it their main attack form. I never allow psi for NPCs or PCs (other then high level monks, something that I have always thought should have been included, given its relationship to mental development), sort of "monk magic". For instance, the physical attributes of monks only covered a portion of what we saw on the Kung Fu TV show (there are a good number of episodes that deal with what appear to be mental attacks). There's also stories of real life Tibetan monks doing some pretty interesting stuff threw concentration and meditation (an ability to kill at a distance, create fire etc.).

[Kellri]

There's also stories of real life Tibetan monks doing some pretty interesting stuff threw concentration (an ability to kill, create fire etc.).

Sorry...just have to interrupt this thread for another of Kellri's tales of the Wild East.

I hitchhiked my way into Tibet in the early 90s from Yunnan. Towards the end of that decade I went to the Dalai Lama's court in exile in Dharamsala. Almost without exception, I believe the whole 'Tibetans are a magical, spiritual people' line is a bunch of hogwash. Only the Catholic Church equals the Tibetans in their ability to self-mythologize what is essentially a deeply corrupt and frankly medieval priesthood. The Tibetans have gotten away with it for so long largely because of their remoteness and a relatively ignorant laity. Many Hindus, especially those who have some experience with Tibetans have no such illusions about them and often look down upon them as uncultured cretins and thugs. Some historical tidbits I like to spring on Westerners who start babbling about how idyllic they are: Their monks once assassinated one of the Dalai Lamas who had the temerity to convert to another, less superstitious brand of Buddhism. There are a couple of Tibetan ghost-towns where the ruling nobility/monks either slaughtered every single living thing or enslaved the inhabitants over minor religious disputes.

To this day, in Bhutan, one of the primary ways to get ahead is by concocting a dubious story about one's child being a living demigod, pay off a local monk to confirm the story, and then start collecting the inevitable tithes from pilgrims. It's gotten so bad that the king, who is a rather educated man caught in a very primitive society, has begged the people to knock it off. A few years back, attempting to infuse some measure of modernity, he proposed democratic elections. No one formed any kind of political parties, so the king came up with some of his own (The Yellow Party, The Green Party, The Red Party, etc. - all pretty much interchangeable). People went ahead and voted, but only after the hapless king had to come out and command people to do so, reassuring them that ALL of the candidates had his blessing and it was ok to vote for them.

When I lived in India, I spent several months of my time living in a former maharaja's vacation villa in the Orissan town of Puri. The home of Lord Jagganath - from whence we get the idea of the juggernaut. I lived with an Indian family who had bought the house on the cheap. Gopal, the head of the family, had taken a real shine to me and invited me to take up residence in one of the unused back rooms. He and I liked to smoke quite a bit of hash together, on the sly, as his Bengali wife had a strict no drinking and smoking policy. During these sessions, he told me his life story. At one point, he had been a real live outlaw ("dacoit") for a few years after a run-in with the Prince of Bhutan who had come to town to party for a few months. The Prince made a royal ass out of himself, openly boozing it up with is entourage in a dry town, attempted to rape several local women, and so on. Gopal was a respected member of the kshatriya (Knightly) caste and took it upon himself to gather together some henchmen and go kick some Bhutanese ass. He ended up nearly killing the prince by repeatedly slamming the royal facefirst into a table over and over again. For the next 3 years Gopal was in hiding in the jungle while the Bhutanese sent several squads of thugs to exact some reprisals.

So....anyways, when it comes to psionics in AD&D, I tend to use an equivalent Gamma World mutation like Mental Blast or somesuch. At least that's how I ran Expedition to the Barrier Peaks last time around. Carry on.

[Chainsaw]

good stories

Thanks! Always a fun read.

Regarding psionics... I pretty much ignore the psionic powers of monsters and avoid monsters whose main shtick is psionics. In a pinch, I'll use something like a generic "mind blast" power. As you all know, I began playing with 2E. As part of that I had The Complete Psionics Handbook. I was so excited when I bought it. The idea of psionics seemed really cool for some reason (maybe I thought of it as a Force analog, I don't know). So, we rolled up a few PCs with psionics, and of course every non-psionic PC got like at least a dozen chances at a wild psionic power, but the system never really worked very well in play and we usually ended up ignoring it. When I got back into gaming and discovered 1E, almost everyone to a person said the psionics rules sucked ass, so I never even bothered to read them.

What's the point? I would love to have a fun psionic system that worked easily in play and felt different from magic, but wasn't obviously superior or inferior to magic. If this system is out there, please let me know...

[ScottyG]

The psionic blast is pretty lame, but the body weaponry, molecular manipulation, or some other discipline can add a cool element to an encounter. The attack/defense modes are just half the picture.

[sepulchre]

Kellri wrote:

Almost without exception...

Fascinating observations. Though I concur with 'almost', I have read some fairly astute critiques of the feudal structure and history of the monastic class in Tibet. I believe some Tibetan monks have a part to play in the ways of knowing and being in the world that exceed the normal range of human activity.

Gamma World mutation like Mental Blast

Had not considered this one, I may give it a go.

ScottyG wrote:

The psionic blast is pretty lame,

Hmmm. I have always considered this ability rather unique from many other abilities that it added a breadth of strangeness and danger to the campaign.

[gizmomathboy]

Well, considering I'm having some mind flayers mucking about in my current campaign, this thread is timely.

I've looked at some stuff that Francisca has pointed me at and I think for the most part I'm just gonna roll with what the DMG has for psionics vs. non-psionics.

For the most part it won't kill someone outright unless they have really low INT/WIS. The worst that can happen is Feeblemind or Stunning for the most part.

[Philotomy Jurament]

...for the most part I'm just gonna roll with what the DMG has for psionics vs. non-psionics.

This is what I typically do.

I really, really *WANT* to like psionics, but it's kind of like going to a dusty, vinyl music store with old Yes and Sabbath and Tygers of Pan Tang posters on the walls and finding an obscure album with awesome cover art and a great band name, then taking it home and dropping the needle and going, "Meh." I absolutely dig the tone and promise of the attack and defense mode names, I like the idea, but D&D psionics still fall flat, for me. I feel like there's some unrealized promise, there. Not sure how to realize it.

[gizmomathboy]

Well, just as a matter of "making an anecdote" here's roughly what happened during my Tuesday session.

The party encountered 4 mind flayers, well 6 in total 2 more came in later as the result of a sort of trap thingy. The party for for the most part had combined INT+WIS in the 24 band. One was 20 and another 29.

This meant for failed saves they would be mostly likely to become Enraged or Panicked with some Confusion thrown in for good measure.

The Enragement worked well because the party didn't know wtf was going on (they thought it was some magic used by the flayers or the room) so they were reticent to engage in melee and hurl ineffectual magic at the flayers. This of course forced them to engage a monster that basically laughs off magic (MR 90%), has shitty AC (5), but decent HP (HD 8+4). Well, they would have decent HP if I hadn't rolled shit for them (didn't fudge it too much), and I rolled like shit for initiative.

In the end, I think BTB worked out ok. Only 1 NPC came close to getting his brain sucked out, and I think 1 PC came close to getting Feebleminded/Permanent Insanity.

In a side note, player confusion about things are amusing and annoying. In this case I have some ley lines amping up their magic (double effects) but they are confusing it with an effect of a device/artifact they are supposed to be retrieving (to help combat Tharizdun/Temple of Elemental Evil/Dagon).

[AxeMental]

There's also stories of real life Tibetan monks doing some pretty interesting stuff threw concentration (an ability to kill, create fire etc.).

Sorry...just have to interrupt this thread for another of Kellri's tales of the Wild East.

.

As always some interesting as shit stories Kellri.

As far as "spiritualism", and any sort of unusual "abilities" linked to religious "mystic" persons, I've only read accounts. They are interesting, and would make a cool foundation for some sort of psionic monk (along with other Eastern mystic stories). As to the larger points you brought up...I do think there's good and bad in any group (even those that are supposedly holy, "good" etc.), phonies abound (usually motivated by power and greed), still within these groups are the real deal too. I never throw out the barrel because of bad apples. Only when the barrel itself is rotten and hopeless...