Exceptional/Extraordinary demi-human NPCs: do you do this.

[thedungeondelver]

I realize this (may) be more of a homebrew question so if the topic wanders too far afield I don't mind if this thread gets moved...

Does anyone here ever have exceptional demi-human NPCs who, for whatever reason, are able to surpass normal level limits or other restrictions of their kind? That is (for example) a Grey Elf high mage of great age and intellect who can function as a 13th or 14th level magic-user, and so on.

I don't think there's an expressed restriction on doing so but I could imagine it might irritate those in the group who play more "mundane" demi-humans.

[T. Foster]

When I do this they're explicitly non-adventurers - likely extremely ancient, relics of a prior epoch when the world was more magical and the elder races more vibrant - and not comparable to demi-human PCs. They likely have other differences from a "standard" character as well - the 1500-year-old grey elf wizard may well cast spells as a 17th level MU, but because he's so old and wizened he probably fights and has the hp of a much lower-level character, and has perhaps forgotten how to cast lower level spells because he hasn't needed them in the hundreds of years he's been hermited away researching the deepest secrets of the multiverse. A character like this is, essentially, a plot device.

Also, while I'd do this with spellcasters, I'm much less likely to do it with fighters. I view the various races' fighter level-limits as being tied to their physical size, and even if I decided to make an NPC elf super-swordsman who fights like a 13th level fighter I'd probably still give him the hp of a 7th level fighter (comparable to the "attack rank" concept from the D&D Companion Set, I suppose?).

[ScottyG]

I always assumed that those levels would be exceeded. To me those are the limits a character can advance to without extraordinary assistance. But the multiverse is teeming with extraordinary assistance: divine favor, wishes, items that boost levels, etc. The limits are going to slow down progress, but there’s just too much magic out there for me to assume progress just stops when the listed levels are reached. Don’t some of the old TSR adventures have characters that exceed the listed limits, maybe some of the D series elves? As an FYI, Luke Gygax’s character Melf was a level or 2 higher than the listed defaults, and on one of his Q&A threads, Gary did say that he allowed wishes to bypass the limits on a 1 with per 1 level basis.

[thedungeondelver]

Foster you hit the nail on the head, I think (your input appreciated too, Scotty), with "bygone era". I think in a human-centric campaign (which is the default for AD&D) there's always the chance of some venerable NPC demi-human out there doing magic stuff that aren't adventuring, have no interest in adventuring, and are guarded by their particular kin like a national treasure.

[Joe Mac]

Yes.

I don't use the UA level limits, but I do use the UA/Dragon article rule that single-classed demi-humans may exceed the (PHB) limits by 2. Thus, any elf with an 18 intelligence may reach 13th level as a magic-user, and a gray elf with a 19 may reach 14th level.

[AxeMental]

I realize this (may) be more of a homebrew question so if the topic wanders too far afield I don't mind if this thread gets moved...

Does anyone here ever have exceptional demi-human NPCs who, for whatever reason, are able to surpass normal level limits or other restrictions of their kind? That is (for example) a Grey Elf high mage of great age and intellect who can function as a 13th or 14th level magic-user, and so on.

I don't think there's an expressed restriction on doing so but I could imagine it might irritate those in the group who play more "mundane" demi-humans.

My understanding is that the level limits apply to PCs not NPCs (I don't believe the level limits in the PH mention NPCs, though I think the assumption is that level limits will be mostly followed by the DM for the average NPCs). The level limits are there to discourage players from being demi-human to keep the feel of the game (so purely a game mechanic for players) not to hamper the creative DM. The only logical way elves/dwarves etc. could hang on to their turf would be some really high level NPCs (I would assume there are 20th level elf wizards "out there" for instance) extremely rare and likely never scene (otherwise it seems humans would have taken out the other races pretty quickly). If you look at the suggested reading list given by Gygax, you might be able to extrapolate something over to the game (the "the rings of power" for instance). As the above poster stated, there's too much fantastical magic out there to not allow for upward movement beyond the "typical". That said, its still a human-centric world, so I use it very sparingly (same with class restrictions, NPCs can at times push the limits) and the players never really find any of this out.

There's also the point already mentioned above, about those who rise in levels outside of the "adventuring world" (ie. long term study). In my mind the majority of high level clerics and MUs didn't adventure to get there level (they did so by staying in their labs and studying, or by praying and advancing in some other "carreer" oriented way). Perhaps powerful magic items exist to increase the power of demihumans relative to high level humans.

Adventurers are exceptional, per the game descriptions, rare. They are capable of rapid level gain by killing monsters and taking their treasures (mavericks to some degree). Thats how you can have a relatively young wizard adventurer when most are old men.

As for players with demi-human PCs wanting to push beyond level limits...if they can figure out how, I will allow it (one level at a time) I think this may have happened a half dozen times...maybe... in 30 years. It gives that player hope, and keeps them from feeling stagnant. The thing about the D&D universe (where a person can be turned into a frog with relatively common magic), anything is possible.

[Philotomy Jurament]

Sure, I'll give NPCs whatever abilities I want, although in the case of something extraordinary I'd also give some sort of in-game reason for that ability. I see the class/level structure as being a game mechanism for describing PC power and advancement, rather than a description of "natural laws" that define the game world. Consequently, I might use that structure to define NPCs when it's convenient, but I don't think of NPCs as being bound by that structure.

If I gave an ancient Grey Elf NPC extraordinary magical abilities, I doubt I'd even consider him a classed NPC in the usual sense. Instead, I might say he functions as a 3rd level Fighter, but with the spellcasting abilities of a 14th level magic user. His description would be much more like a "hero" character from Deities & Demigods than a normal PC, using game terms that "fit" the concept.

EDIT -- Bah, I should have learned by now that I could save myself time by just posting "what Foster said" if he's already posted in the thread. (Unless we're talking about the Cavalier or Barbarian, of course...)

[Matthew]

I agree with Philotomy (saved me some words, there).

My understanding is that the level limits apply to PCs not NPCs (I don't believe the level limits in the PH mention NPCs, though I think the assumption is that level limits will be mostly followed by the DM for the average NPCs).

Actually, the level limits are blatantly there for NPCs, as they are provided in brackets for dwarf clerics and the like, who of course can only be NPCs in the PHB. That said, I do not think it is an iron clad limit on the capabilities of NPCs.