Movement Rates

[Matthew]

I thought this might be interesting for some people. It is a comparison of movement rates for monsters and such across Chain Mail, OD&D and AD&D: Movement Rates

Notably the vast majority of changes occurred between Blackmoor and the Monster Manual, and I think we can all guess why. There are very few changes elsewhere, and they usually come when a "grouping" is divided up, such as ogre/troll into ogre and troll or giants and dragons into subtypes. Here are some other incidental things I noticed whilst going through this exercise:

1) In Greyhawk the magical AC bonus for shields only counts if its greater than the magical armour bonus, I never noticed that before even knowing the OD&D rule.
2) Magical Swords are lawful aligned in Chain Mail
3) Fritz Leiber uses the term "drow" in 1975 for a Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser adventure.
4) People used "magician" as a synonym for "magic-user" more often than I imagined in the 70s.
5) "Fighter Ability", "Magic Ability" and "Psionic Ability" are key categories in Deities, Demi-Gods & Heroes.
6) Blackmoor is the source for all those "sea versions" of monsters.
7) In the Strategic Review OD&D combat example initiative is adjusted by dexterity.
8) Druids were originally Magic-User/Clerics, the multi-class combination only available to half-elves.
9) A very large number of monsters in the MM originally saw print in OD&D, SR or Dragon Magazine, but some I still cannot seem to source.
10) In OD&D Light Foot, Heavy Foot and Armoured Foot have 12, 9 and 6 for movement, but in CM they have 9, 9 and 6!
11) In the text of CM dragons fly 25", but in the table 24".
12) AD&D "Hammers" are War Hammers in OD&D.

[Falconer]

Druids were originally Magic-User/Clerics, the multi-class combination only available to half-elves.

I would say this is inaccurate. Half-elf PCs in Greyhawk can be Fighter/Magic-User/Clerics. Greyhawk Druids — which can cast Cleric and MU spells — are a “monster” that IMO are implicitly human.

With regard to Blackmoor, I believe you are trying to imply that Gygax shunned it as much as possible in his writing of AD&D, and specifically with regard to the monsters that appear both in Blackmoor and the Monster Manual, the versions in the latter are deliberately changed in many details from the former (which is not true of other OD&D monsters). Yes?

[Matthew]

I would say this is inaccurate. Half-elf PCs in Greyhawk can be Fighter/Magic-User/Clerics. Greyhawk Druids — which can cast Cleric and MU spells — are a “monster” that IMO are implicitly human.

Absolutely, but notably in AD&D half-elves are the only race that can be magic-user/clerics and, aside from humans, have unlimited advancement as druids.

With regard to Blackmoor, I believe you are trying to imply that Gygax shunned it as much as possible in his writing of AD&D, and specifically with regard to the monsters that appear both in Blackmoor and the Monster Manual, the versions in the latter are deliberately changed in many details from the former (which is not true of other OD&D monsters). Yes?

That would be a preliminary conclusion based on the movement rate analysis only, yes. It would be interesting to see whether it is borne out in other ways.

[T. Foster]

You forgot Eldritch Wizardry (all the demons and psionic monsters)! There are also a few new monsters in The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth that later showed up in AD&D - troglodytes, water weirds, and otyughs IIRC - but I don't recall whether the stats in that module included movement rates.

The fact that the Blackmoor stats had the largest number of changes is interesting. However, a plausible explanation (other than an attempt to weaken potential copyright claims on AD&D by Dave Arneson) is that, given the troubled development history of that book, Steve Marsh's aquatic creatures may have been printed more or less as-received, without the level of vetting and development that Gary Gygax normally applied (and did apply after-the-fact while compiling the MM). Everything else (all the monsters from Vol. II, Supp. I, and the SR - not sure about the Dragon monsters) was either created or significantly developed by Gary, so by the time they appeared in print for OD&D they'd already gone through the "Gygax filter," but the Blackmoor creatures had not.

[T. Foster]

Also, relevant to your observation #9, it would be interesting to me if someone would go to the effort (or, if someone already has, if someone would provide a link) to all the monsters in the MM, spells in the PH, and magic items in the DMG that hadn't previously appeared in print for OD&D. Once upon a time I'd have done this (and I'm actually a bit surprised I never did), but nowadays I can't be bothered. I'd still be interested in seeing the results, though.

[Matthew]

You forgot Eldritch Wizardry (all the demons and psionic monsters)! There are also a few new monsters in The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth that later showed up in AD&D - troglodytes, water weirds, and otyughs IIRC - but I don't recall whether the stats in that module included movement rates.

Quite right. I have updated the document to include Eldritch Wizardry. Would be interesting to know if the 1978 LCoT had those movement rates.

The fact that the Blackmoor stats had the largest number of changes is interesting. However, a plausible explanation (other than an attempt to weaken potential copyright claims on AD&D by Dave Arneson) is that, given the troubled development history of that book, Steve Marsh's aquatic creatures may have been printed more or less as-received, without the level of vetting and development that Gary Gygax normally applied (and did apply after-the-fact while compiling the MM). Everything else (all the monsters from Vol. II, Supp. I, and the SR - not sure about the Dragon monsters) was either created or significantly developed by Gary, so by the time they appeared in print for OD&D they'd already gone through the "Gygax filter," but the Blackmoor creatures had not.

Could well be. As it turns out a good number of the movement rates are drawn from the water combat section of OD&D.

Also, relevant to your observation #9, it would be interesting to me if someone would go to the effort (or, if someone already has, if someone would provide a link) to all the monsters in the MM, spells in the PH, and magic items in the DMG that hadn't previously appeared in print for OD&D. Once upon a time I'd have done this (and I'm actually a bit surprised I never did), but nowadays I can't be bothered. I'd still be interested in seeing the results, though.

That would be interesting, but like you I have not the time or enthusiasm right now! A few more observations:

13) In OD&D boarding actions are done with one man per 3' of deck space. Sounds familiar.
14) In OD&D damage is 1d6 per 10' fallen, or per 20' if the fall is broken, which accords with G2 and gives the lie to Gygax's "I always did it exponentially".
15) Normal swimming rate is 3".

[T. Foster]

You forgot Eldritch Wizardry (all the demons and psionic monsters)! There are also a few new monsters in The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth that later showed up in AD&D - troglodytes, water weirds, and otyughs IIRC - but I don't recall whether the stats in that module included movement rates.

Quite right. I have updated the document to include Eldritch Wizardry. Would be interesting to know if the 1978 LCoT had those movement rates.

Water weird: 6"
Neo-Otyugh: 6"
Troglodites: 12"

[Matthew]

Ta! Updated!

[francisca]

3) Fritz Leiber uses the term "drow" in 1975 for a Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser adventure.

From Rime Isle, found in Swords and Ice Magic:

"Hush," she counseled him. "I must now consult the god." Her voice had grown a little singsong in the later stages of her narrative and it became more so as, without transition, she invoked, "And now, O Loki god, tell us about our enemies across the seas and in the realms of ice. Tell us of cruel, cold Khahkht, of Edumir of the Widdershin Mingols and Gonov of the Sunwise. Hilsa and Rill, sing with me to the god." And her voice became a somnolent two-toned, wordless chant in which the other women joined: Hilsa's husky voice, Rill's slightly shrill one, and a soft growling that after a bit the Mouser realized came from Mother Grum ― all tuned to the fire and its flame-voice.

The Mouser lost himself in this strange medley of notes and all at once the crackling flame-voice, as if by some dream magic, became fully articulate, murmuring rapidly in Low Lankhmarese with occasional words slipped in that were as hauntingly strange as the god's own name:

"Storm clouds thicken round Rime Isle. Nature brews her blackest bile. Monsters quicken, nightmares foal, niss and nicor, drow and troll." (Those last four nouns were all strange ones to the Mouser, specially the bell-toll sound of "troll.") "Sound alarms and strike the drum ― in three days the Mingols come, Sunwise Mingols from the east, horsehead ship and human beast. Trick them all most cunningly ―lead them to the spinning sea, to down-swirling dizzy bowl. Trust the whirlpool, 'ware the troll! Mingols to their deaths must go, down to weedy hell below, never draw an easy breath, suffer an unending death, everlasting pain and strife, everlasting death in life. Mingol madness ever burn! Never peace again return!"

[Lord Cias]

Hmmm, then what is a niss and a nicor?

[Matthew]

That is the one! None of the nouns are at any point explained, but presumably have to do with the adventures Fafhrd and Mouser had on earth.

[francisca]

Hmmm, then what is a niss and a nicor?

dunno.
I'll have a look at some of my old dictionaries tonight and see if anything turns up.

EDIT:

Nicor is a "Scandinavian sea monster; whence, “Old Nick.”"

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Nicor

[tetramorph]

Also, relevant to your observation #9, it would be interesting to me if someone would go to the effort (or, if someone already has, if someone would provide a link) to all the monsters in the MM, spells in the PH, and magic items in the DMG that hadn't previously appeared in print for OD&D. Once upon a time I'd have done this (and I'm actually a bit surprised I never did), but nowadays I can't be bothered. I'd still be interested in seeing the results, though.

Well, this is only the monsters, but is this something like what you are looking for, T. Foster?

http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/6472/all-od-monsters

[T. Foster]

That's actually the exact opposite of what I'm interested in

Anyone who knows OD&D plus its supplements plus The Strategic Review & The Dragon knows that a lot of what's in AD&D originally appeared there, but there's a lot that didn't as well. What I'd be interested to see would be a list of all that stuff, the monsters whose first published appearance was the AD&D MM, the spells that first appeared in the PH, and the magic items that first appeared in the DMG.

[rastus_burne]

Thanks for posting that Matthew. Reminds me of a fairly recent conversation we had on Dragonsfoot