Infernal/Abysmal Politics

[tooleychris]

Back in the earlier days of Ad&D the game was pretty heavily persecuted by religion so I don't think the details of hell or the abyss were very well spelled out. I'm projecting to run a campaign involving demon/devil worshippers and am having snags that I hope the brilliant minds here can help untangle.
1. When an evil npc dies what happens to their soul?
A. Goes to hell and transforms into lesser devil?
B. Goes to Hades and becomes Soul Larvae?
1. If so then how does hell repopulate slain
devils?
2. What benefits are there to worshipping devils if
they can't grant power as deities do for clerics?
3. I believe demon worship involves human sacrifice. But again, what would demon worshippers gain?

I'd like to stay close to D&D 1st edition Canon.
Thanks in advance.

Edit: anyone taken up this subject for OSRIC or other "old school " supplements?

[EOTB]

I don't think there was any need to spell that level of detail out for uniformity within campaigns. Each DM could do it themselves, as you're about to.

Ultimately, whatever answers you come up with - unless you have a very long-lasting campaign, or one that starts at high level - are primarily for the DM's benefit in developing a cohesive game world. But in terms of actual campaign play, why a demon does what he does is probably going to remain pretty esoteric.

IMC I don't have pagan-style polytheism with evil gods. I have cults that worship individuals from the lower planes. So IMC lower planar entities can grant spells just like evil gods in other campaigns can.

As to why demon/devils would want to gather worshippers, or influence beings on the prime materials to commit heinous acts, IMC it's simply their nature, and worshippers are how they gain and loose status in relation to each other. But again, none of that really comes up in campaign play.

I don't think there've been any supplements on it, if you are looking to publish.

[Falconer]

There was a Judges Guild AD&D module called Inferno that might be worth checking out, though mainly it is designed for actual adventure in the Nine Hells, not as a treatise.

My understanding is that any powerful being can be a “deity” if it’s worshiped. Lolth is a demoness; Iuz is a cambion; Nerull is a daemon; etc. But all are also gods. You pick the semantics based on their essential function, and to some degree on their pedigree. Dispater, for example, I think of a god, and Asmodeus I think of as a devil, even though technically both are devils. I assume you could be a cleric of Asmodeus, but he probably doesn’t care whether he has a formal cult or not — anytime anyone commits the sin of lust they are offering him worship, as it were.

Human sacrifice is occasionally touched upon in D&D. Of course, there’s the Eldritch Wizardry cover, but in true “Conan” style, she would surely be rescued by the PCs in the nick of time. If the evil NPC performing the sacrifice somehow went through with it (because you can’t always predict the PCs’ success), it would likely mean he successfully summons a demon to his aid against the PCs. I wouldn’t get deeper into it than that within the genre of D&D. If really interested in following this thread, you might check out old school Stormbringer (or Tekumel or DCC or Carcosa).

[T. Foster]

Per D&Dg several of the most powerful demons and devils in the MM1 and FF are reclassified as gods - there's a list in the Demihuman Deities section of which top-level monsters also count as gods (i.e. have the ability to grant spells to clerical worshippers). From there you can extrapolate which daemons, demons, and devils from MM2 should also have that classification.

D&Dg also goes into a little bit of detail regarding what sorts of sacrifices and rituals are required for clerics of various deities and how often they're required, in a big chart in the back of the book. The "promoted" demons & devils from the MM are not, as far as I recall, included on that chart, but the same principles presumably apply to them - in order to remain a cleric of Orcus in good standing you must perform the prescribed ritual/sacrifice (presumably human life) with the prescribed frequency (presumably at least monthy, maybe even weekly - possibly with additional ad-hoc sacrifices required for renewal of highest-level spells, requests for divine intervention, etc.). A cleric who doesn't perform the necessary sacrifices will, at very least, find himself unable to renew his 3rd+ level spells.

Regarding what happens to the souls of evil NPCs (and how the infernal planes restock their ranks), there's some of that discussed in the books - they become lemures, larvae, or [whatever the demonic/CE equivalent of those two is, which I can't recall the name of at the moment] and remain in that state being tormented for awhile until possibly being promoted to greater status as undead monsters or devils/daemons/demons. That's what happens to general, run-of-the-mill evil NPCs. Powerful ones - high-level clerics and mages - are likely to have made deals with their infernal patrons to avoid that fate - to be transformed straight into a true demon/devil upon death* - or will just seek to continue to accumulate earthly power and avoid that fate for as long as possible (likely ultimately attempting to "cheat death" by becoming liches).

*though whether those infernal patrons will actually honor the terms of such a deal is an entirely other question. Moral of the story: if you don't want to be tormented in the afterlife, don't take any chances; don't be evil!

[bobjester]

I'm working on an evil cult myself that involves demons & the like, and was also wondering about worship/sacrifices that gives more power to the demon lord in question.

Your comments have given me extra food for thought, so off I go to hit the books.

[tooleychris]

I've been doing the wiki shuffle concerning what devils /demons are TSR /WOTC fictional property and which are religious/myth Canon. Amazingly almost all of them have some historical significance. I'm going to write some material based on this (actually pretty far into it already) and maybe publish for you good folks to peep at.

[francisca]

Here is the list from D&Dg, of them, only Lolth is listed in the tables in the back of the book:

MONSTER MANUAL

Demon:

• Demogorgon
  Juiblex
  Orcus
  Yeenoghu

Devil:

• Asmodeus
  Baalzebul
  Dispater
  Geryon

Dragon:

• Bahamut
  Tiamat

FIEND FOLIO

Demon:

• Lolth

Elemental Princes of Evil

Slaad:

• Ssendam
  Ygorl

[Falconer]

Because Lolth is written up again in the Nonhuman Deities section.

I always thought it interesting that, despite DDG claiming to be “Book 4 of AD&D,” it clearly post-dates FF, so at best it’s Book 5.

[genghisdon]

it is book 4, lolth & drow came from the adventures GDQ (mainly D3 & Q1), not the FF.

D&DG 1980, FF 1981

[T. Foster]

it is book 4, lolth & drow came from the adventures GDQ (mainly D3 & Q1), not the FF.

D&DG 1980, FF 1981

FF was published in 1981 but was actually written/compiled in 1979 and then shelved for 2 years after the Blume brothers nixed the planned merger between TSR and Games Workshop and "TSR UK" had to be set up in its place - which is why Don Turnbull's Preface is dated 1979, why it only includes those new monsters from modules that appeared in 1978-79 (G series, D series, S1-2)*, and why its contents mostly originated in the "Fiend Factory" section of White Dwarf magazine, which was published by GW, not TSR.

So, while D&Dg was published before FF, it was written after, which is how D&Dg is able to make a reference to it.

*interesting to consider the difference if FF had been revised in 1981 to include the new monsters from the 1980-81 modules (S3, Q1, A series, C1-2) in place of some of its dumber entries (which is apparently what EGG wanted, but his suggestion was ignored)

[tooleychris]

Pretty sure the order of material was meant to be representative of actual publish date.

[Falconer]

it is book 4, lolth & drow came from the adventures GDQ (mainly D3 & Q1), not the FF.

I am familiar with those modules. This is what I was referring to:

NOTE: The following beings from the MONSTER MANUAL and FIEND FOLIO should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers:

…

FIEND FOLIO

Demon:
Lolth (detailed in this volume)

Elemental Princes of Evil

Slaad:
Ssendam
Ygorl

[tooleychris]

I'm making wonderful progress on a publication involving the ORIGINAL topic thanks to a few helpful folks here and elsewhere. Special thanks to folks that pointed me to royalty free art. Big help!

[AxeMental]

My take is that Gygax invisioned evil PCs going to hell (and if they were powerful in life they will be powerful on the other side (they will be rewarded as well as be punished, so I think they look forward to it to some degree). If this question is bothering a player to the point they won't play evil because of it (and its a downer) I simply say its not important, that perhaps they go elsewhere. You could argue that evil is a character flaw that might never be acted out (so black thoughts, but never realized, perhaps because the opportunity never comes up). I usually say, no one knows for certain for PCs that don't act it out through psycho acts. But if your wanting to go to hell (or do some really naughty stuff) you can and you will).

[Geoffrey]

I believe demon worship involves human sacrifice. But again, what would demon worshippers gain?

Consult "Patron Demons" by Lewis Pulsipher on page 12 of Dragon #42 (Oct. 1980). It contains information on chaotic evil characters making pacts with demon princes, receiving demonic aid in return for sacrifices (most especially sacrifices of humans, elves, and dwarves). This aid takes the form of the demon prince himself, or another demon, or some other chaotic evil monster appearing and helping the demon worshipper.