Infinite Wishes

[robertsconley]

• Use a Candle of Invocation to summon a efreet
• Use a charge from the Rod of Beguiling to make him your friend (no saving throw)
• Use your first wish
• Use your second wish to recharge the Rod
• Use your third wish to create a Candle of Invocation.
• Dismiss the Efreet with your thanks.
• Repeat

[rredmond]

Very interesting. Would the folks from the Plane of Fire eventually get wind of this?
Interesting though.

[Welleran]

Very interesting. Would the folks from the Plane of Fire eventually get wind of this?
Interesting though.

It is clever. I would probably have an army of Efreet come calling, though...

[vargr1105]

I see no problem with this, just obtaining the candle and the rod would be quests in their own right well above an beyond the possibilities of most adventuring parties. So if someone is brave/smart enough to obtain them in the fist place they deserve whatever use they can get out of it. How do you think evil magician get command over "entire armies of demons" in the first place?


And *always* remember to add the following to the end of any Wish: "...with the caveat that the consequences of casting this spell will not put me or any of my companions IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM in a worse off condition than we are in now according to MY OWN STANDARDS OR OPINION."

This pretty much ties the hands of any GM who wants to screw around with you casting Wishes. No million gold coins falling on your head, no time-traveling when you wish someone dead, no being polymorphed into an ogre when you wish for STR 19, etc. What the GM thinks about the results of wish is irrelevant, only what the PC (i.e. the player) thinks about them is.

[T. Foster]

If a player is using a wish to try and break the game, the GM is fully within his rights to screw with that player no matter what precautions he thinks he's taken, regardless of whatever clever or legalistic wording he's come up with to protect himself. Even if the player is so upset by this that he quits the game, that's still no loss to the GM because that player was attempting to wreck the game even if he had stayed in it. IMO, of course

EDIT: FWIW, if a player in one of my games tried to pull this, the trick would work once (with the caveat that the third wish would probably just tell the character where another candle of invocation could be found, rather than giving him one) but the second attempt would automatically summon a hostile "greater efreeti" (or a whole bunch of them) immune to the effects of the rod, who would immediately attack the would-be summoner. If the player bitches about it, I point out that he got one "free" wish and should've been satisfied with it. If he continues to bitch, see above.

[TRP]

What the GM thinks about the results of wish is irrelevant, only what the PC (i.e. the player) thinks about them is.

That's a negative. The player and the character are not one in the same, and it's the character making the wish. The good DM, in this situation, gives no fucks what the player thinks.

[AxeMental]

Wish spells are really problematic for the DM IMO. Its supposed to be an objective game (fish in a fishbowl), and suddenly you have a spell that mentions more or less "screw the player over". Now, there's alot of logic here: 1.game-wise you don't want to suddenly destroy the game balance, and 2. internal world logic- if you care to think about it, it makes sense that "fate", the gods (and pantheon of demons etc.) or whatever whoever else wouldn't want 1st level Nimrod suddenly becoming the most powerful 59th level wizard in Greyhawk blowing their carefully crafted plans.

Wish spells represent the amazing feeling of wonder and total chaos of high level magic and bad ass adventuring thats possible (think that skinny geek Major Nelson washing up on that beach and finding Genie...man, he had it made. Remember when Major Healey fucked with his Genie and things went badly for him in the end? Or what about that blue Genie that was out to fuck anyone he could (that got sucked up in a vacuum cleaner...wow Nelson would have made one hell of a 1E AD&D player). So, yeah, bottom line anything can happen. Just focus on "keeping the game fun" for the players, and the world somewhat stable. Want a +2 sword, OK thats not hugely upsetting to the world. Bring back a PC, not so bad. Get a +10 sword? Sure, "suddenly you appear in a black cavern. Lucifer is standing in front of you reaching for his +10 sword, its not there, somehow its in your hands as you stand shaking in Hell. Role initiative.....mother fucker". The player should have some common sense in these things (even the novice). In your example it simply wouldn't work (the powers that be would have stopped this long ago). The genie's in legend seem to bend the rules all the damned time. So your in good company as DM (not to mention Gygax's advice and long standing game tradition). The wording is everything, and can always be searched for some mistake (perhaps they get the magic item for a second).

[vargr1105]

If a player is using a wish to try and break the game, the GM is fully within his rights to screw with that player

And of course, by the very same standard of ethics and behavior, when the GM screws with a player without his specific, a priori, voluntary consent, said player he is entitled to spill the contents of his Mountain Dew bottle over the GM's head while showing the little douchebag the middle finger before removing himself from the presence of such a creature and seek a new GM who is not a petty tyrant for purposes of personal ego satisfaction.

Right?

The good DM, in this situation, gives no fucks what the player thinks.

Well, good thing I don't play with "good GMs" then.

I only play with that bad, evil, downright nasty and sub-par type of GM that actually respects and gives a fuck about what the other human beings around the gaming table think and feel. You know, the horrible, monstrous, anathema type of GM that recognizes his opinions about a fictional exercise of imagination are subjective, just like everyone else's, and does not expect others to automatically abide and respect them as if they were the Holy Writ of God Himself and permits other voices to be heard and actually (gasp! the loathsome horror!) can be persuaded to change his mind.


Yeah...I know, I got lousy taste in GMs. And I am a terrible, terrible GM myself.

[EOTB]

I only play with that bad, evil, downright nasty and sub-par type of GM that actually respects and gives a fuck about what the other human beings around the gaming table think and feel.

Than why the need for bulletproof language when no one has a gun in their hand?

If you think it's about ruining your Thursday night of glory, that's not it. DM-twisting of wishes is to either turn a players greed against him, or smack down anyone warping the fabric of the game. And yes, I think any player who tried to put out a rinse-repeat method of wishes with no side effects is trying to warp the game.

It's not about me ruining the player's game, it's about him ruining everyone else's game with effortless rewards.

[deathanddrek]

I'd soon be drafting Candle and Rod variant tables... won't be too many attempts before ending up with an amorous efreeti willing and ready to make all your wishes come true.

[Piper]

The genie's in legend seem to bend the rules all the damned time.

Including refusing to grant one of Aladdin's wishes (the one for a roc's egg). The genie even stated that he would have killed Aladdin for even making that wish, except he knew that he (Aladdin) had been deceived. That's bent to the point of breaking IMO.

[Stormcrow]

And *always* remember to add the following to the end of any Wish: "...with the caveat that the consequences of casting this spell will not put me or any of my companions IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM in a worse off condition than we are in now according to MY OWN STANDARDS OR OPINION."

You had a jerk for a referee, didn't you?

[AxeMental]

The genie's in legend seem to bend the rules all the damned time.

Including refusing to grant one of Aladdin's wishes (the one for a roc's egg). The genie even stated that he would have killed Aladdin for even making that wish, except he knew that he (Aladdin) had been deceived. That's bent to the point of breaking IMO.

It is the classic "bent truth" of the Genie, (wishes in general I suppose), and likely what Gygax leaned on. It suggests a moral code of some sort. It seems they do work fine for evil people if the request is not too extreme. Likewise for good. The problem seems to arrise from true greed. When a person uses the power for expanding their character (good or bad) legend seems to support that genie's don't screw with you. However, the greedy punk with no moral compass (good or evil) that seems to be the one that comes to a quick bad end. Disney movie for instance: Aladin winning his love (wish away, your pursuing your nobel dreams, almost helping you fulfill your destiny rather then altering it), Jaffar wanting to control the kingdom as a giant snake (no problem, your just being who you are). It also might be the wizard sort knows how to use such magic carefully, the good guy has an innate dislike for the "help" and has no excessive greed (so doesn't use the wish for excess by nature) and the schmuck-tard just can't help himself "Make me a god".

[AxeMental]

And *always* remember to add the following to the end of any Wish: "...with the caveat that the consequences of casting this spell will not put me or any of my companions IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM in a worse off condition than we are in now according to MY OWN STANDARDS OR OPINION."

You had a jerk for a referee, didn't you?

Totaly agree with Storm Crow here. That "legal contract" crap sorta cuts against the concept of the game (presumed ignorance of the game rules). The advice given is to help the DM avoid ruining the fun of the game for the players (ie. let them have the wish, but make it not change things too much), not for the players to attempt to out maneuver the DM (which is of course, impossible, he controls everything on a whim if he likes). This spell rule advice is really information the players shouldn't know (remember the first time you encountered a wish spell and had no freaking clue what to ask for). Players should be allowed to reach for the stars and thus learn quickly they'd be better off reaching for something more down to earth. The DM needs to be careful not to appear as if he's just being an ass (or appear suddenly stymied, when in truth he's not per the guidelines of the spell). I remember our DM let us make our mistakes (its almost a curse). Remember its just a few characters, if they die you can role up new ones.

[TRP]

The good DM, in this situation, gives no fucks what the player thinks.

Well, good thing I don't play with "good GMs" then.

I only play with that bad, evil, downright nasty and sub-par type of GM that actually respects and gives a fuck about what the other human beings around the gaming table think and feel. You know, the horrible, monstrous, anathema type of GM that recognizes his opinions about a fictional exercise of imagination are subjective, just like everyone else's, and does not expect others to automatically abide and respect them as if they were the Holy Writ of God Himself and permits other voices to be heard and actually (gasp! the loathsome horror!) can be persuaded to change his mind.


Yeah...I know, I got lousy taste in GMs. And I am a terrible, terrible GM myself.

Yes, that's exactly what I stated. I don't care about any of the players' enjoyment ever. I wasn't referring to a specific type of play; I was referring to all DMing in general.

"Lighten up, Francis. "