Forcing player characters back in melee?

[deathanddrek]

Here's a typical melee plan: the party (Xs) are standing their ground at a door/passage against oncoming monsters (Os) to limit the number of monsters in the front rank to two.


Melee scenario by deathanddrek, on Flickr

However! The four monsters at the back are pushing hard on the two monsters in the front so that they must move forwards.

What's your mechanic for handling this? Is there any way to make those PCs fall back?

In the specific instance I faced this morning, given that the monsters weren't using weapons but were intelligent humanoids, I figured that the front rank of monsters would be forced to "overbear" the PCs under the weight of the pushing. I figure the PCs would fall back to stop the overbearing attempts.

How would you rule this?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

By the book, I don't believe there's a rule for this, so we're in ad hoc ruling territory.

How would I rule it? I'd say that in any melee or fistfight situation, you can't force the other side backwards unless you're actually winning the fight.

So the humanoids would have to "win" a round of combat (defined as, say, any situation that would force a morale check, so hitting twice as often as the party, or inflicting casualties without taking any, or similar outcome). If they do "win" then their chance to force back the players is figured according to their total strength and body mass vs the party's total strength and body mass. So if they're gnoll-sized creatures, the party's very likely to be forced back, but if they're goblin-sized, the party has a good chance of holding fast.

[deathanddrek]

(From cross-post on G+... why O why did I split the question across two forums? I was curious what the self-identified DIY D&Ders would have to offer. I think here I will get answers more along the lines of interpreting the rules-as-written or the spirit of them, which is what I'm really after, rather than adding new gizmos in.)

OK (scratches chin...) thinking about my original problem statement compared to what actually happened in-game...

The automatons were barrelling along. They happened to be two abreast. The ones at the back were eager to get to the front. Therefore there would be pushing.

So I was faced with the thought that the party will obviously want to hold their ground, but how do I use the rules as written to account for a tide of greedy, grasping metal bodies, while sidestepping ever forcing the PCs to give ground (which feels taboo)?

Figured that overbearing represents an "opposed check".

So I suppose the goal wasn't to force the PCs back, even though that's the model I used to ask the question, but to account for a crush of massive bodies.

Thanks for the reply!

[Bargle]

BTB....hmmm...the answer is you can't I guess.

with NPC's and hirelings of course it's clear (going all the way back to CHAINMAIL), a morale failure involves moving back a move if the morale loss isn't enough to be a rout.

What does this mean for players? Well, if the monsters are severely beating your fighters on the front line, the players of the front line fighters have to make a choice to die on the front line, or tell the group to retreat. In a way, the players have to lose morale not their characters. If there is no where to retreat, then their backs are metaphorically and literally against a wall (or a room without other exits), then the intelligent choice is to fight to the death at the most advantageous spot, which is where they started. The players should be free to make this choice.

The only other option I can see is the rules on overpowering/grappling (since this is the BTB forum I won't tell you my awesome and fast grappling rules). Once a front line fighter is grappled, then I suppose, depending on who won initiative, a monster could move into his spot which would allow other monsters to pour into the room.

Another option of course is magic. fear type spells, grease, various high level spells and perhaps even advance warning of a lightning bolt being cast would be enough for players to move their characters out of the choke point.


now say you're talking about something like a rugby scrum. A situation where one group of monsters is pushing an opposing group of player's characters. Who makes headway? Firstly, in combat that is a quick way to get yourself killed as you try and push someone they stab you with a 4' piece of metal...This is what I would do. I would add up all the hit points of the PC's and divide by 3.5. This is the number of d6 rolled for their side. I would do the same for the monsters. Whomever had the higher total moved the opposing party back 6" or so. This will favor high level fighters and big monsters.

[AxeMental]

As far as I know there is no rule (another judgement call I'd base on common sense).
I'd consider the size of the monsters (weight and height and speed) as well as HD, and the levels of the PCs (and their size). Also number. 40 orcs coming down a hall "pushing threw" would be harder to stop then 4. Of course if the 4 humans are 20th level it would be childs play to stop them dead (ie you'd make a pile of dead bodies at the entrance as they pile up).

[T. Foster]

From the way you describe it (the attackers specifically trying to push the defenders out of the way) I'd probably call it an overbear attack and use the rules from UA (Method II) to resolve it.

How I've usually handled situations similar to this (not the pushing attacks, but a group of defenders trying to hold a tactically advantageous position and prevent the attackers from getting through) in actual play is that NPCs/monsters will hold position until their morale breaks; PCs will hold until either they drop (0 HP or some other effect - paralyzation, sleep spell, etc.) or the player chooses to have his character retreat (which is, as Bargle said, effectively the player failing his morale check ). Once the spot is vacated whether the attacker or second-rank defender is able to move up to fill it is determined by the next round's initiative roll (unless the defender retreats via a fighting withdrawal, in which case he's automatically ceding his position to the attacker without any chance for a second-rank defender to step up into it).

[AxeMental]

I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying orcs are approaching normally (with weapons slashing trying to break the line, or are you saying a bunch of orcs are pushing threw from behind (the way a crowd moves in a heavily packed rock concert (with those in the back pushing those in front of them forward), where you get carried along or get trampled. If the former case (orcs trying to break threw using weapons), I'd say the orcs would have to slip past (thats going to be tuff with a sword swinging at you) but if the later, then I could see the front orcs being killed (basically prone) basically sacrificed so that the humans in front get physically pushed backward (their swords no longer being able to swing they might switch to daggers). Its a push/shove match at that point (almost like rugby players pushing at one another trying to get the other side to stumble and fall, but also likely using weapons when possible. If one side suddenly moved aside this might leave the pushers falling down and prone. So, regardless, its a risky move for the orcs (or what have you).

I'm unfamiliar with UA rules related to this (per Foster), but I'd tend to just use common sense (as I don't think this was supposed to be a common situation). Just always give a chance that seems reasonable and role (so you at least seem impartial to the players).

PS Obviously, if you had two human fighters trying to stop 4 hill giants from pushing threw, the humans wouldn't stand a chance, they'd have to move over or get trampled (unless were talking about mega powerful fighters...even then I'd role).

[francisca]

What I posted on G+:

So much situational stuff going on, I have no general rules of resolution for this, other than using the AD&D/UA overbearing rules, with mods, if I find they even apply.

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'd use the UA overbearing rules. They're a pretty close fit, including adjustments for the sizes of the combatants and for multiple participants.

[Guy Fullerton]

By the book, I don't believe there's a rule for this, so we're in ad hoc ruling territory.

How would I rule it? I'd say that in any melee or fistfight situation, you can't force the other side backwards unless you're actually winning the fight.

So the humanoids would have to "win" a round of combat (defined as, say, any situation that would force a morale check, so hitting twice as often as the party, or inflicting casualties without taking any, or similar outcome). If they do "win" then their chance to force back the players is figured according to their total strength and body mass vs the party's total strength and body mass. So if they're gnoll-sized creatures, the party's very likely to be forced back, but if they're goblin-sized, the party has a good chance of holding fast.

Yes! This is the best answer so far because it (insightfully) considers fighting ability and hit points before dealing with realism.

[AxeMental]

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with P&P on this (in all cases). If you have a mob pushing threw a corridor and two fighters at one end attempting to stop them from pushing threw, they may annihilate those in the front of the mob, and their dead bodies simply get pushed forward over the fighters. I've read where crowds can actually function a bit like water. The players should feel like they understand the laws of physics (which I assume are similar to the real worlds) gravity, momentum, potential and kinetic energy etc.

[Matthew]

If it were important, I would be inclined to roll a morale check for the player characters as for non-player characters, a failure indicating a "push back" (interestingly, in Chain Mail, heroes can be "driven back" during fantastic combat).

[AxeMental]

If it were important, I would be inclined to roll a morale check for the player characters as for non-player characters, a failure indicating a "push back" (interestingly, in Chain Mail, heroes can be "driven back" during fantastic combat).

I don't see this as a matter of morale, but more overall strength and weight. You could win a morale check but still loose what amounts to a pushing match (imagine a bunch of orcs pushing shields into a small group of fighters also holding up shields, and the fighters fall. The DM could figure this out by combining relative strengths and weights and figuring out some realistic % chance.

What forces the fighters back is also their desire to keep being able to swing their swords. They need a certain amount of room to make this possible (so if they are being rushed it might be the only option). Also its a measure of how quickly one fallen orcs spot is filled by another. In my mind level is also a key factor here. A more experianced fighter is going to be able to hold back monsters he kills in a single blow compared to a 1st level fighter that requires multiple rounds). In other words, 2 elf 7th level fighters would probably be able to hold a corridor from charging orcs then 2 huge half orc 1st level fighters. However, once it turned into a pushing match, the huge half orcs would have the advantage.

Also, consider the direction the bodies fall (a fighter is going to have a hard time holding the corridor if the ogre he just killed falls right were he's standing. That alone can push him back. Likewise, if the body falls inward, it might slow the ogres coming down the hall.

[EOTB]

All of this physics stuff makes perfect sense with my real-world experiences playing football, etc. But...

If we start bringing this in, how does the gnome and halfling fighter ever manage to stay upright, or hold his ground, fighting anyone but kobolds?

How do you ever beat the giant series?

Does the fantastic nature of the game in some way abstract and compensate for what should be no-win situations based upon physics alone?

[AxeMental]

All of this physics stuff makes perfect sense with my real-world experiences playing football, etc. But...

If we start bringing this in, how does the gnome and halfling fighter ever manage to stay upright, or hold his ground, fighting anyone but kobolds?

How do you ever beat the giant series?

Does the fantastic nature of the game in some way abstract and compensate for what should be no-win situations based upon physics alone?

I think your correct, its supposed to be a rare thing (it shouldn't come to pushing), and the advantage goes to the ones holding ground (probably why it was never addressed in the DMG). Still, you want to impart a sense of realism I'd think. If you have a bunch of orcs lined up in a hall and 2 first level fighters trying to hold them back...how long could they pull this off before they had to step backward. Its a fair question.

If its a gnome (or little demi-person) they are armed and likely going to kill anything coming at them (at this point its an advantage to be small in game logic, hence the minus to hit gnomes by certain large monsters). If they can get the bodies to fall away from them, the gnomes will be able to hold their ground more likely. I picture gnomes etc. as fantastical creatures, attempting to push against them would be difficult as they are below you, and deadly with their weapon.