Detecting Evil on the Invisible

[Chainsaw]

How does detecting evil work with evil, invisible creatures? Does the PC need to be able to see an object to detect whether it's evil? If not, what happens when, for example, a paladin detects evil in a room that has an evil, invisible creature in it?

This came up in our game yesterday, but I was thinking about it this morning and don't have my books at work. Maybe the text doesn't even address this situation specifically, I don't know. If not, how would you handle it?

[MageInBlack]

Paladin from PHB
Detect evil at up to 60' distance, as often as desired, but only
when the paladin is concentrating on determining the
presence of evil and seeking to detect it in the right general
direction.

Cleric spell from PHB
Explanation/Description: This is a spell which discovers emanations of evil,
or of good in the case of the reverse spell, from any creature or object For
example, evil alignment or an evilly cursed object will radiate evil, but a
hidden trap or an unintelligent viper will not. The duration of a detect evil
(or detect good) spell is 1 turn + % turn (5 rounds, or 5 minutes) per level
of the cleric. Thus a cleric of 1st level of experience can cast a spell with a
1 % turn duration, at 2nd level a 2 turn duration, 2% at 3rd, etc. The spell
has a path of detection 1” wide in the direction in which the cleric is
facing. It requires the use of the cleric’s holy (or unholy) symbol as its
material component, with the cleric holding it before him or her.

I would say yes you can if they are invisible if you are facing the right direction. I would have a glowing aura appear where the invisible item/creature is and not expose the actual appearance of the item/creature.

[rredmond]

I would agree with Wizardawn. Of course any invisible creature with a modicum of intelligence will realize that they are being scanned for (particularly with the spell, but I'd argue, if they are smart enough, they'd realize what a paladin is doing as well ) and act accordingly.

[Chainsaw]

OK, cool, so according to that logic, the way we played it made sense.

[Matthew]

Well ... remember detect evil only works on really strong emanations of evil, not merely evil alignments. The DMG example is 8 HD strongly aligned evil creatures, for example.

[PatW]

I'd go with something like Amityville Horror - the priest walks in the door and is aware of great evil. Sure it's invisible, but you know it's there. No glowing visions or anything, just an awareness of what's right in front of you.

[Chainsaw]

That's helpful, thanks Matthew and Pat.

Here is a bit more information about the situation: Our hearty party had been tracking someone they thought was probably invisible and the trail led to a door that opened into a grim room - the room had a large bone "sculpture" hanging from the ceiling, suspended by chains. The walls of the room were covered in bizarre runes and symbols, unfamiliar to any party members. Hanging from the ceiling were various human bones as well, suspended by twine. On one wall was a door barred shut, but from behind it they could hear vaguely human cries or moans.

The paladin detected evil. The bone sculpture lit up. A few runes lit up (previously seen only to capitalbill's character who was wearing his Special Spectral Spectacles). They had hoped their invisible quarry might light up as well, but he did not. There was some talk about whether that was because the spell wouldn't indicate him, because he wasn't evil or because he wasn't actually in the room.

Here's even more detail - obviously not to be read by Dread, fridge or capitalbill.

The quarry was indeed an evil and invisible magic-user, but he had never entered the room. He slammed the door of the room earlier, simply to draw the PCs into it. He was hiding outside, invisible and on the ceiling - he has a ring of spider climbing.

[TRP]

Yes, the appropriate evil may be detected, but no glow or anything visible. The paladin, or cleric, just senses evil over yonder.

[grodog]

A similar, common Q arises when crossing detect magic with an invisible creature or object. In general, I've ruled that since detect invisibility is the higher-level spell, that is requires that higher-level spell to find such a creature (i.e., detect magic or detect evil won't reveal an invisible creature).

Perhaps a better way to manage these situations is to rule that detect invisibility will allow you to see an invisible creature normally, and engage it in combat, track it easily, etc.; the first level divinations will allow you to detect the creature, but aren't useful in combat since they require concentration and directional scanning, and the creature will be moving around. Using that logic, perhaps a PC running a detect (magic/evil/good/whatever) spell and shouting our directions to companions would reduce their "to hit" penalty against an invisible creature from -4 to -3 (or down to -2 in a smaller, more limited area).

Thoughts?

[EOTB]

I would say that detect evil told you that you were in the presence of evil (assuming that met a particular DMs threshold for that spell) but nothing beyond that if it were invisible. Nothing that would help with combat.

As far as detect magic and detect invisibility, DM does not detect invisibility imc.

[AxeMental]

To me this says it all: "evil alignment or an evilly cursed object will radiate evil"

So as DM I'd read that as:

Detect Evil on monster x (monster glows evil, or equiv. if in that area of effect)
Detect Evil on invisible monster x (air glows around where monster is)
Detect Evil on hidden monster x (say behind curtain) glows in that area (where it would be)

I would say this detection is noted by the caster only (ie. his comrads would not see its location, and would have to be directed by the cleric to hit at it).

Remember the thing is "radiating evil" so to me that gives the location (and could tell size perhaps as well).
As far as a cleric hitting an invisible creature that has been detected as evil, I would say at a -2 (since you can't actually see the opponent, only sense his location or see an aura of some sort). I wonder if this has been brought up before someplace.

In practise say theres a room with an invisible ghoul. The ghoul would go unnoticed by all save the cleric. If he fails to turn it he can attack with his weapon I'd say at a -4 for the comrads who can't see anything.

PS just noticed the paladin description. Yeah that does seem to suggest direction more then seeing or sensing some specific location. Hmmmmm.

[TRP]

Radiating by no means defaults to visible emanation. I can't generally see heat, but I can sure feel it. I can also get a general direction from where it emanates, but unless it's a visible source of heat, I'll only get a general, non-specific location.

[Dread]

As a DM Ive never allowed a player to see any evil emanations from things that could not be seen. At best the player would be told 'you feel the presence of evil in the general direction you are looking....kind of like feeling the warmth of the sun on your face in the sunlight...or feeling a cool breeze blow. You know its there but you cant tell what or where....Unless you can see what you are looking at, then you can focus attention and try to determine specifics.

Id never let a player use Detect Evil or Detect Magic to thwart invisibility

[TRP]

Id never let a player use Detect Evil or Detect Magic to thwart invisibility

Bingo.

"There's some powerful evil over that a way."
"Hmm .. something magical in that direction, sir."

[Matthew]

To me this says it all: "evil alignment or an evilly cursed object will radiate evil"

Check out the DMG, p. 60, for a more detailed explanation.

I'd never let a player use Detect Evil or Detect Magic to thwart invisibility.

The PHB and DMG are clear that the spell does not indicate location of the evil, only its presence or lack thereof, so all things considered it would probably be quite difficult to use it as detect invisibility, except in the most general of ways.