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Gosh, looking at the spell description, this doesn't seem to allow for a saving throw. How do you play it in your campaign?

darnizhaan wrote:Gosh, looking at the spell description, this doesn't seem to allow for a saving throw. How do you play it in your campaign?

You have to wonder how often this sort of thing might have been missed in editing (ie. an unintended rule, which could be critical), given the speed the books were produced and the number of people on the project. I tend to think a save is likely (given other spells with saves). But then again, its not lethal.

Checked it out...It's a touch attack(roll "to hit") and causes victim to flee one round per level of caster. Doesn't seem that powerful.

No save.

It requires a to hit roll. I play it as needing to hit the target's standard AC, not a softball "easy to touch" AC. Succeeding at a to hit roll against a good AC is no sure thing, even for a mid/high level cleric. (Even against lowly AC 5, it's only a 50/50 chance of success at level 7!) Plus the cleric needs to be in melee to cast it, so the casting might get disrupted. And there's the opportunity cost of not memorizing a more sure-thing spell like cure light wounds.

Guy Fullerton wrote:No save.

It requires a to hit roll. I play it as needing to hit the target's standard AC, not a softball "easy to touch" AC. Succeeding at a to hit roll against a good AC is no sure thing, even for a mid/high level cleric. (Even against lowly AC 5, it's only a 50/50 chance of success at level 7!) Plus the cleric needs to be in melee to cast it, so the casting might get disrupted. And there's the opportunity cost of not memorizing a more sure-thing spell like cure light wounds.

I concur with all of the above. In my experience pretty much the only time you're going to see this spell in play is when there's a largish group of bad guy NPC clerics & the DM/designer wants them to have a variety of spells.

I rule the To Hit Roll is against AC 9 or AC 10. All you've got to do is touch them.

But even with that, it's not that great a spell.

Flambeaux wrote:I rule the To Hit Roll is against AC 9 or AC 10. All you've got to do is touch them.

But even with that, it's not that great a spell.

I see it as a spell to use during negotiation type situations, not combat.

I agree that it does not require a save as written. However, it is a powerful spell for a first level cleric when faced with a 20th level fighter. Unlike command, it requires no saving throw, can affect anyone, and if you say it only requires a hit to AC 10 (minus dex mod, if appropriate) it is going to hit a lot.

darnizhaan wrote:I agree that it does not require a save as written. However, it is a powerful spell for a first level cleric when faced with a 20th level fighter. Unlike command, it requires no saving throw, can affect anyone, and if you say it only requires a hit to AC 10 (minus dex mod, if appropriate) it is going to hit a lot.

Yes. Exactly. If a, say, 20th level fighter lets an enemy get that close, he deserves what he gets.

But I've never seen characters in play get much beyond name level. So boosting the apparent strength of a low level spell doesn't really bother me.

Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik.

20th Level Fighter: Snicker Snak...

Flambeaux wrote:I rule the To Hit Roll is against AC 9 or AC 10. All you've got to do is touch them.

But even with that, it's not that great a spell.

The only touch spell where I disregard metal armor is shocking grasp (because metal conducts obviously). My take Flam, is that the armor is a barrier between the hand of the caster and the person inside the armor. So, the guy with a -4 AC (plate plus dex plus magic ring etc.) is going to require a -4 for the guy casting cause fear.

Given the power of this spell....touch the 15th level fighter and he runs away for the duration of the battle) I'm pretty certain that was Gygax's intention.

Flambeaux wrote:Yes. Exactly. If a, say, 20th level fighter lets an enemy get that close, he deserves what he gets.

Wait, wouldn't you want to melee if you are a fighter? What is your alternative? And how is your alternative better than your melee weapon?

20th level fighter was just an example, we could as easily be talking about an 8th level opponent of any class.

Smart players know that melee is a losing proposition.

Fighters may have to fight but the better fighters will avoid it, just as clerics and magic-users do, unless necessary.

By 8th level, 12th level, or 20th level, any decent fighter should have a retinue that does the fighting for him.

As far as I'm concerned, touch means contact with the person. I consider the armor worn an extension of the person. Therefore, touch the armor is the same as touch the person.

But, as I noted above, I make no claims to rule this in a btb fashion.

Flambeaux,

That is an interesting way to look at it but it doesn't seem very fun for the fighter.

I go with regular AC for all touch attacks. They have to find an opening just like a weapon does. I also don't let shocking grasp ignore metal armor because nobody wears metal armor directly on their skin. There is padding and clothing beneath.

Keeps it simple too although i won't say for certain it is btb. Not sure if there is a definitive btb answer for this.

Cheers!

MJW