Knights & Knaves Alehouse

The MM mentions that a devil can enter another plane (like the Prime Material) if the proper name of the devil "...is spoken (and heard)." I could've sworn that there were some rules or guidelines governing this, but I don't remember where they are. Anyone know? (Or am I mistaken?)

I believe you can control a demon or devil if you know their true name as well.

Aren't there demon amulets or something? Or is that the Alphonso Warden module I read a couple months back? I thought it was something like knowledge of name has some sort of control as well - but not sure where I heard that.

rredmond wrote:Aren't there demon amulets or something?

Yeah, demons have amulets and devils have talismans that can give a character power over and/or summon the demon or devil. But that's a separate thing from just speaking their "proper name." In the case of a devil, just inspecting the talisman without proper magical protection might summon the devil, and speaking the name read from the talisman will always summon the devil. But it's also possible (though not certain) to summon a devil merely by speaking its proper name, without using a talisman or spell.

Aha! I just went to read the details on the demon entry, and found this: "Their attention is also attracted by persons in an ethereal state. If the name of a particularly powerful demon is spoken there is a chance that he will hear and turn his attention to the speaker. A base 5% chance is recommended to the referee."

Although that's for demons, and devils are treated separately, it's probably the guideline I remember seeing and couldn't find. Seems like a similar guideline might apply when someone speaks the proper name of a devil, and with no need to be ethereal. Another possibility, at least for dukes of Hell, is to base a chance on the divine intervention guidelines (dukes of Hell being equivalent to lesser gods). Or I could just make something up, of course.

Your mention of etherealness and demons/devils recalls a question I've always had to mind.. Demons and devils are able to travel the Ethereal plane, are attracted to those in an ethereal state, and are on the encounter tables (IIRC). Yet, The Outer Planes don't touch the Ethereal at all, in my understanding, so all of that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Any insight into the connection? Was the Ethereal originally conceived of as touching on the Outer Planes?

Nerelas wrote:Your mention of etherealness and demons/devils recalls a question I've always had to mind.. Demons and devils are able to travel the Ethereal plane, are attracted to those in an ethereal state, and are on the encounter tables (IIRC). Yet, The Outer Planes don't touch the Ethereal at all, in my understanding, so all of that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Any insight into the connection? Was the Ethereal originally conceived of as touching on the Outer Planes?

I understood the Ether to be the "connective medium" among the planes. So all planes "touch" the Ethereal.

But I might be conflating my understanding of the Ether with the D&D game concept of the Ethereal Plane.

Flambeaux wrote:I understood the Ether to be the "connective medium" among the planes. So all planes "touch" the Ethereal.

In AD&D, the Ethereal connects all the Inner Planes. But it explicitly does not connect to the Astral or Outer Planes. (I'm referencing Deities & Demigods for that: "Note that the Ethereal Plane does not extend to the Outer Planes, so it is not possible for creatures on those planes to 'go ethereal'...Note that the Astral Plane touches only the upper layer of each of the Outer Planes, and of the Inner Planes it touches only the Prime Material..."

I don't recall any mention of devils roaming the Ethereal Plane (and the MM says they only seldom enter the Astral), but there's definitely mention of demons roaming the Ethereal Plane (Monster Manual: "Demons frequently roam the astral and ethereal planes"). That does seem odd, because they'd need to reach the Ethereal by first going from their home Outer Plane to one of the other Inner Planes, and then moving to the Ethereal.

Aha! Despite the statement in Deities & Demigods saying that the Astral Plane only touches the Prime Material and none of the other Inner Planes, EGG numbers the Ethereal Plane as one of those which borders the Astral Plane in his Dragon magazine article, "The Inner Planes." (Issue #73)

Interesting. I no longer have a copy of Dragon #73, but I seem to recall something of that sort. The PHB (as with Deities and Demigods) doesn't mention any Ethereal/Outer Plane connection. Is there a reference in OD&D which suggests such a connection (I don't own the LBBs)?

Nerelas wrote:Interesting. I no longer have a copy of Dragon #73, but I seem to recall something of that sort. The PHB (as with Deities and Demigods) doesn't mention any Ethereal/Outer Plane connection. Is there a reference in OD&D which suggests such a connection (I don't own the LBBs)?

(EDIT -- Note that the Dragon article mentioned up-thread doesn't draw an Ethereal/Outer plane connection, but rather an Ethereal/Astral connection.)

D&D planar cosmology wasn't defined in the OD&D books. In the LBBs, there's little mention of planes at all. There's the spell, Contact Higher Plane, which mentions "higher planes of existence," and numbers them 3rd through 12th, with higher numbered planes being more likely to answer the yes or no questions accurately (but also more likely to drive the magic user insane).

The LBBs also mention an invisible stalker existing in a "non-dimensional plane."

The Greyhawk supplement (1976) introduces astral spell and the term "astral plane." It also implies that there is a connection between the astral plane and hell ("...if his body is...destroyed the magic-user's astral form is immediately sent to jibber and shriek on the floor of the lowest hell.") Greyhawk also introduces the concept of being ethereal, with armor of etherealness, et cetera. However, there is no mention of an "ethereal plane." Instead, "becoming ethereal" is just concerned with becoming insubstantial; it's more of a state than a plane.

The Eldritch Wizardry supplement (1976) talks about psionic astral projection, and mentions the astral plane (and the fact that demons can operate in it), the silver cord, and the psychic wind. The Etherealness power is described as altering body vibrations to those of a different plane. Eldritch Wizardry also lists multiple monsters that "extend into the ethereal and astral planes." The two planes are almost always listed together for planar-capable monsters. The entry for demons says "Demons frequently roam the astral plane. Their attention is also attracted by persons in an ethereal state." But that's about it; there's no real description of the planes or their relationship.

Surprisingly, Gods, Demigods, and Heroes (1976) makes no real mention of "planes" at all. It refers to "ethereal form" and to "astral form," but not to planes.

The first real treatment of the D&D planar cosmology as we know it seems to be Dragon #8 (July 1977), with it's EGG article, "Planes: Spatial, Temporal & Physical Relationships in D&D."

My take on all this is that the relationship between the planes simply wasn't well defined at the time demons were introduced into the rules. Eldritch Wizardry often seems to put the concepts of astral and ethereal together (especially when considering monsters), and the AD&D entry for demons in the Monster Manual is derived directly from Eldritch Wizardry, so it brought along that connection.

Philotomy Jurament wrote:Aha! I just went to read the details on the demon entry, and found this: "Their attention is also attracted by persons in an ethereal state. If the name of a particularly powerful demon is spoken there is a chance that he will hear and turn his attention to the speaker. A base 5% chance is recommended to the referee."

Not that you were implying this, Jason, but I just groked the distinction that a demon/devil/etc. that hears its name may "turn his attention to the speaker" and that this does not necessarily imply that they're summoned into the speaker's presence a la gate/divine intervention. Hmmmm.