Knights & Knaves Alehouse

I thought this came up a few years ago, but can't remember what was said. Was there someplace in the DMG that limits the amount of additional damage a weapon can inflict? For instance, if my PC has 18.00 Str. and he uses his two handed sword you add +6 when he hits. What if he hits with a dart, does he still get the +6 or something less? What about hand held weapons? Would you give the +6 to a dagger? What about a chair picked up and used as a weapon?

PS, compound bows can be made for 18.00 correct? Or is there a limit to 18?

No, that is a rule from the second edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, specifically the Player's Option supplement Combat & Tactics. There is no limit on the strength rating missile weapons can be built for in first edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, regardless of whether the weapon is of composite or non-composite construction (not compound, which is different again, a sort of modern bow). However, for strength to apply to a hurled or shot missile weapon it must be built for strength. For example, a fighter with strength 16 does not apply his +1 damage from that attribute to a thrown spear unless that spear is specially built to allow him to do so. Indeed, theoretically a long bow could be built for strength 25 if the game master thought that was a reasonable idea.

Matthew wrote:No, that is a rule from the second edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, specifically the Player's Option supplement Combat & Tactics. There is no limit on the strength rating missile weapons can be built for, regardless of whether composite or non-composite (not compound, which is different again, a sort of modern bow). However, for strength to apply to hurled or shot missile weapons they must be built for strength. A fighter with strength 16 does not apply his +1 damage from that attribute to a thrown spear unless that spear is specially built to allow him to do so.

Ah yeah, I remember that now. Do you have the page # (I want to see how clearly that is stated)? Also, is that only for a thrown spear/weapon (would a normal spear get the bonus if not thrown but thrusted)?

Thrown weapons don't (normally) get your Strength damage bonus at all. Other than that, any weapon gets the full Strength bonus, so a character with a girdle of storm giant strength using a dagger would do 1d4+12 damage vs. man-sized opponents and 1d3+12 against large opponents.

There is mention on DMG p. 64 of the possibility of characters obtaining specially-made missile weapons that allow them to apply their strength "to hit" and damage bonuses, but how such weapons are acquired (and how much they cost) is left entirely to the discretion of the DM. This is not limited to composite bows (the DMG passage specifically mentions "extra-heavy sling stones" as an example) nor is there any upper limit. Theoretically a character with a girdle of storm giant strength could acquire a set of specially made darts that could only be used by someone with a strength of 24 or higher that would each do 1d3+12 damage.

AxeMental wrote: Ah yeah, I remember that now. Do you have the page # (I want to see how clearly that is stated)? Also, is that only for a thrown spear/weapon (would a normal spear get the bonus if not thrown but thrusted)?

No problem, here you go:

DMG, p. 64 wrote: Strength Bonus Considerations: The strength bonus for hitting and damage does not apply to missiles unless the character so entitled specifically takes steps to equip himself or herself with special weapons to take advantage of the additional strength. This will result in the weapon having an additional chance to hit and do the additional damage as well. In no event will it add to the effective range of the character’s weapon. Thus, the character will employ a heavier missile or a more powerful bow and heavier arrows or larger sling missiles to gain the advantage of strength. To do so, he or she must obtain the special weapon or weapons, and this is within the realm of your adjudication as DM as to where and how it will be obtained, and how much cost will be involved.

In B/X and AD&D/2E this was changed so that, in addition to dexterity applying to hit, strength applied to damage (though there were caveats, like only applying to thrown weapons in second edition unless using a particular bow). Anyway, a fighter with dexterity 18 and strength 18/00 in first edition could potentially get +6 to hit and +6 to damage with a specially built bow, say for instance the bow of Odysseus.

In P&P's G+ game, there is a houserule that weapons built for strength bonuses that have a multiple ROF get your strength bonuses evenly split, rounded up, between each missile lobbed in the round.

Huh. Whaddya know. I was always doing it wrong. I give strength bonuses to hurled weapons like spears and hammers, but not bows/crossbows (unless they were special made).

To me that seems like it makes sense - Ahnold would be able to throw a hammer harder than I could. But a machine is what the machine does.

Something for me to hold in my back pocket if there's ever a rules negotiation that would change something else in the player's benefit...

EOTB - that's what I've always done in my games, as a houserule.

Although I do try to discourage dart and dagger throwers as a go-to attack routine. Tomb robbing is no time for circus acts. They're refused service at the prime dives and told to go have a sherry at the magic-users' fern bar in the scented quarter.

Matthew wrote: In B/X and AD&D/2E this was changed so that, in addition to dexterity applying to hit, strength applied to damage (though there were caveats, like only applying to thrown weapons in second edition unless using a particular bow). Anyway, a fighter with dexterity 18 and strength 18/00 in first edition could potentially get +6 to hit and +6 to damage with a specially built bow, say for instance the bow of Odysseus.

My copy of Moldvay Basic explicitly states that strength bonuses are only applied to hand-to-hand combat.

francisca wrote: My copy of Moldvay Basic explicitly states that strength bonuses are only applied to hand-to-hand combat.

Hmmn. Thrown weapons definitely get the strength bonus to damage in the RC, but I cannot see it in either Moldvay or Mentzer basic, probably introduced somewhere in the BECMI progression, then, I guess.

Matthew wrote:

AxeMental wrote: Ah yeah, I remember that now. Do you have the page # (I want to see how clearly that is stated)? Also, is that only for a thrown spear/weapon (would a normal spear get the bonus if not thrown but thrusted)?

No problem, here you go:

DMG, p. 64 wrote: Strength Bonus Considerations: The strength bonus for hitting and damage does not apply to missiles unless the character so entitled specifically takes steps to equip himself or herself with special weapons to take advantage of the additional strength. This will result in the weapon having an additional chance to hit and do the additional damage as well. In no event will it add to the effective range of the character’s weapon. Thus, the character will employ a heavier missile or a more powerful bow and heavier arrows or larger sling missiles to gain the advantage of strength. To do so, he or she must obtain the special weapon or weapons, and this is within the realm of your adjudication as DM as to where and how it will be obtained, and how much cost will be involved.

In B/X and AD&D/2E this was changed so that, in addition to dexterity applying to hit, strength applied to damage (though there were caveats, like only applying to thrown weapons in second edition unless using a particular bow). Anyway, a fighter with dexterity 18 and strength 18/00 in first edition could potentially get +6 to hit and +6 to damage with a specially built bow, say for instance the bow of Odysseus.

Thanks Matt.

Hmmm. Like the above poster I imagine someone like Arnold could throw a hammer and do more damage then I could. Not sure if I like this ruling but will use it regardless. Probably make the cost equiv. ratio to the difference in a compound bow vs. a normal bow as a guide.

AxeMental wrote: Thanks Matt.

Hmmm. Like the above poster I imagine someone like Arnold could throw a hammer and do more damage then I could. Not sure if I like this ruling but will use it regardless. Probably make the cost equiv. ratio to the difference in a compound bow vs. a normal bow as a guide.

Yeah, we just allow strength to count for thrown weapon hit and damage modifiers regardless, though not in addition to dexterity. For instance, a character with strength 17 (+1/+1) and dexterity 17 (+2/+0) would only get the best hit and damage modifiers (+2/+1). Also, a character with low strength would have to apply that (we use the best bonus and worst penalty rule) so that a character with strength 6 (−1/+0) and dexterity 16 (+1/+0) would have a net result of no modifiers (+0/+0). In the case of bows, we treat them as capped for strength, for example: Short Bow (up to 15), Composite Short Bow (up to 16), Composite Long Bow (up to 17), Long Bow (up to 18).

Not really BTB, but in my AD&D games I allow full str bonus to apply (both hit & dam) to thrown weapons, but not for small thrown weapons, such as daggers, darts (or in OA, shuriken, ect).

Bows are genrally limited to
Short Bow (str 15)
Long bow (str 18)
Short Composite Bow (str 18/50)
Long Composite Bow (str 18/99)

Slings add str bonuses

deathanddrek wrote:EOTB - that's what I've always done in my games, as a houserule.

I as well. We do 3d6 in order so strength bonuses are fairly rare anyway.

Cheers!

MJW