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At a glance, the rules additions for dragons found in the first edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Set seem usable. Any experience and/or thoughts?

It's been well over 20 years since I looked at that product. Can you offer a summary? I have a vague feeling it may be something that had originally appeared in Dragon magazine?

IIRC, dragons can use their breath weapon as many times a day as they want, but only up to a cumulative max of 3xHP. So an old dragon could do a massive blast likely to kill just about anything even with a successful saving throw.

Added two categories at the top of the age range (great wyrm and something else?) so that hit points increased to 10 and 12 per HD.

I think it increased claw/claw/bite damage and added a couple of new attack routines -these were essentially the same as the article in Dragon in the mid-80's; wing buffet and something else?

I used them when I ran FR when the grey box came out. I thought they worked well. The ability to use breath as often as desired with varying HPs worked especially well at keeping adventurers respectful.

Eye of the Beholder posted some of this before I finished, not to upstage you, just thought the whole skinny would be helpful. I would be willing to adopt the two additional age categories - need to look at MM again though to see if this is a little redundant. I certainly don't object to a higher hit die for a dragons.

Dragons/Forgotten Realms
(DM's Source Book of the Realms)
Number of attacks per round: Thedragons of the Forgotten Realms have a feline quickness that belies their reptilian origin. They may make up to twice the normal biting and clawing attacks in a single round, and divide those attacks against figures within the same 15 foot area. They will do so only if they are pressed, or attacked by numbers greater than three times their hit dice.

Damage of Breath Weapon: The dragons of the Forgotten Realms may use their breath weapon as many times as they see fit within a 24 hour period, but may only inflict up to three times their hit points in damage, maximum, during that period. Commonly, in combat, a dragon will breathe thrice, with each attack inflicting the amount of damage equal to the dragon’s initial hit points (see DRAGON in the Monster Manual). If pressed, however, a dragon may release everything in one shot, or may breathe more than three times at reduced effect at scattered targets. (Divide total damage per attack by three.)

The Ages of Dragonkind:two ranks beyond for special individuals:
Venerable Dragons have 9 points/die.
Great Wyrms have 10 points/die

Subdual: The fact that the dragon can be potentially subdued while taking less damage than needed to slay it causes dragons to the underated as monsters. Dragons in the Forgotten Realms can be subdued, but only under particular circumstances. The dragon in question must be challenged, clearly and openly, either in its native tongue, or, if it speaks it, common. It must accept that challenge for subdual combat to take place.
This means that a sleeping or surprised dragon cannot be subdued by a single fighter rushing in with a lucky shot. Whether a dragon accepts such a challenge or not is based on the intelligence of the dragon and whether it has more hit dice than the individuals
attacking it. If the dragon can count on allies (other dragons, human servants, etc.) coming to its aid, count their hit dice as well to determine whether the offer is accepted.

DRAGON'S HIT DICE:
Is Greater Is Equal
or Lesser
Average 70% 40%
Very 60% 30%
Highly 50% 20%
Except 40% 10%
Genius 30% 0%
Supra 20% 0%
Individual dragons such as Tiamat and Bahumat will never accept subdual challenges. Second, once a challenge is accepted, certain rules apply. Attacks that inflict real damage (such as spells like fireball) are not permitted, and their use will negate the challenge and enrage the dragon involved. Weapons inflict one quarter real damage when used to subdue. The dragon may, of course, use his breath weapon, but will do so only if a 7 or better is rolled with two six-sided dice. Thirdly, there is a chance that once the dragon is officially subdued (as listed in Monster Manual II), it will renege on its offer, either escaping or (if the attackers are sufficiently banged up) attacking in earnest. The chances of this depend on the dragon’s alignment. Lawful Dragons are 90% likely to
honor the terms of the subdual challenge. Neutral Dragons are 70% likely to honor the terms of the subdual challenge, and if they do not do so, will seek to escape as opposed to turn on their attackers. Chaotic Dragons are only 50% likely to honor the terms of their contract. Black, brass, white, red, and copper dragons are all Chaotic in nature. If a dragon is subdued (and honorsthat subdual), the adventurers may loot the dragon’s lair and wrest from the creature a promise to leave the area and not return... Dragons found in lair may found asleep, but those of higher than Average intelligence will be likely to set up some form of trap or trip-wire to alert them to prowlers in their domains.

Adult and older dragons can radiate a dragon-fear, which may cause low-level creatures to panic. They may do this once per encounter with the same individuals.

Saving throw hit dice for dragons of 5 or more hit points are determined by dividing their hit points by 4. An ancient, huge, red dragon saves as a 22nd level creature, not
an 11th (15-16 DM's Source Book of the Realms)

I don't like making dragons stronger. I prefer the relatively small St. George-style dragons that can crawl through 10' by 10' dungeon corridors.

Sham has a good blog post on this:
http://shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2008/12/d ... rt-24.html

I like the idea that dragons can breath more often to lesser effect, but I don't like letting them combine the power of multiple breaths into one.

I also like allowing dragons to attack with their tails and, to some degree, their wings.

I'd flush the rest of those rules down the toilet.

BITD, I had created a set of house rules for dragons, based in part on several desires:

1. to make dragons less predictable by defining a spread for their potential alignments
2. to boost the effectiveness of dragonfear, basing it on the effects of negative CHA
3. to boost the melee damage potential for larger dragons

I based the rules on those in the FR box set, as well as a number of articles about dragons in Dragon Magazine; perhaps "Self Defense For Dragons" by Gregory Rihn in issue #50, and Leonard Carpenter's "Dragon Damage Revised" in #98 and "Dragon Damage Revisited" in #110---although I thought Roger Moore had an article that I really liked on this topic; I haven't gone back to check the articles, so I could be off on them (so if you're curious, let me know and I'll validate later).

I haven't used these rules in play recently, but think in general I would still probably stick with most of them.

Geoffrey wrote:I don't like making dragons stronger. I prefer the relatively small St. George-style dragons that can crawl through 10' by 10' dungeon corridors.

Sham has a good blog post on this:
http://shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2008/12/d ... rt-24.html

That's certainly a valid take on the topic of dragons, and one that has merit, IMO.

However, I personally think dragons should be wing-born genocide, albeit very, very rarely showing up.

But you know, there is nothing to keep us from having it both ways in a campaign.

We've head a tangentially related thread recently on people's preferred scarcity of dragons. The general consensus - even here - seems to be that dragons should be relatively rare major butt-kickers. DungeonDelver and I seem to be the ones arguing that the game is called Dungeons & DRAGONS and that dragons should be quite a bit more common and a tad less dangerous. Or maybe a better way of saying it is that I think that dragons should be a challenging - but no unbeatable - threat for pcs from low levels up to high.

I think if you look at how dragons are presented in the MM, my concept is born out. A couple 16 hp small young black dragons might make for a great "top dog" monster on the second or third level of low-level party's first dungeon. 4 large ancient red dragons, casting spells, and fighting smart should keep a 10th-ish level party busy.

I think the FRCS write up comes from a few things: 1. After the Dragonlance series, the dragon as unstoppable war dreadnought concept gained popularity; 2. FR didn't have gods walking the world the same way that Greyhawk did, and these tougher dragons along with the magic-item soaked, uber-high level npcs took their place; 3. As the 80's went on, I think the baseline assumption for pc parties was that they were smaller, but adventured much longer -- retirement age moved from 12th-15th level to 18th-20th; 4. In preparation for 2e, TSR wanted to deemphasize demons and devils as opponents for high level parties and promoted dragons (and later, giants) as the new high-level foes of choice.

I don't think dragons should be less dangerous and more rare - I think they should be exactly as dangerous and as rare as they are shown.

Consider the HARD, probably the pinnacle of mortal dragondom as far as enemies goes.

Breaths for 88 hit points of damage. That high-level magic-user you brought with you? Yeah his HP avg. is 30 and if you're reeeeeally lucky he's got some kind of fire protection going on. Once this very intelligent dragon realizes that's where the fucking lightning bolts and cones of cold keep coming from, that's where he's focusing his breath weapons.

Meanwhile, the 55-60 HP fighters in front are being bitten for an average of 18 hit points per round, clawed for an average of 8...and let us not forget spells, too. And our drake saves at 17th level.

but

That same party of high-level characters isn't high-level because they're stupid, they're high level because they're sneaky. The mage is using mirror image. The fighters are using missile weapons, and spread out to avoid the cone, there's a duo of invisibility-ring wearing high level thieves waiting to leap on and do backstabs, etc.

Play dragons effectively as a DM and they will fight a party to a standstill, without needing to rely on making them into scaly gods first. But if a party is winning against it/them, let them have it. They're gonna need it.

I don't like any of those additions.

rogatny wrote:1. After the Dragonlance series, the dragon as unstoppable war dreadnought concept gained popularity;

Actually, I would say DL treated dragons mainly as fighter aircraft.

Falconer wrote: Actually, I would say DL treated dragons mainly as fighter aircraft.

Or fighter/bombers, from what I recall of the novels.

I don't know if anyone posting in this thread has seen "How to Train Your Dragon", but you can tell that some creative-types at Dreamworks played D&D - probably Dragonlance.

Anyway, point is that there are scenes where they are training to fight dragons, or dragons are attacking the village, and the older dragon fighters say stuff like "they only have 3 shots", or "this one doesn't have any juice left in him".

What I do like about the rule that allows the dragon total control over his breath weapon is that it doesn't change the total damage it can do. It just makes it less predictable, less fixed. I also think dragon fighting should be something that isn't impossible for PCs to do until they are name-level. But PC uncertainty is rarely a bad thing.

francisca wrote:But you know, there is nothing to keep us from having it both ways in a campaign.

and

thedungeondelver wrote:I don't think dragons should be less dangerous and more rare - I think they should be exactly as dangerous and as rare as they are shown.

I agree completely: many ages and sizes of standard AD&D dragons can potentially navigate standard 10'x10'x10' dungeon corridors, and even those that eventually grow too large may be able to use spells or magic items to move around (and not just polymorph self but reduce, potion of gaseous form, cloak of the manta ray (or ...of the bat)---a small dragon could certainly wear one!---for example). If course, if your dungeons features corridors that are substantially wider than 10', then your dragons can roam about wherever they so desire

Also: the sizes listed for dragons could represent a number of possible ranges: is the 42' long size of a Blue Dragon for an Average dragon?---then a Small dragon is smaller; is it for an Ancient dragon?---then a younger dragon is smaller. There's plenty of wiggle room in the MM descriptions to set your dragon size any way you like.

re: Frequency: all dragons in the MM range from Uncommon to Very Rare:

- Uncommon (20%): Black, Brass, Copper, White
- Rare (11%): Blue, Bronze, Green, Red
- Very Rare (04%): Chromatic (not unique to Tiamat in my games), Gold, Platinum, Silver

So, they should definitely be showing up in encounters and potentially even WM charts (young ones are probably growing a lot, and always hungry? ), and not just as campaign-pinnacle-crushing Huge Ancient Red Dragons either.