Knights & Knaves Alehouse

Do you have to do it immediately after sleeping?
Can you have breakfast first?
Can you adventure all day long and then memorize spells?

Basically, I'm wondering if a magic-user could keep a few spots open in order to memorize a spell or two as needed.
The DMG doesn't seem to indicate a time frame for memorizing spells after resting, only that it takes fifteen minutes for each spell level.

(Apologies if this has come up before.)

Yes, but...

Most mu can't carry the weight, or risk the loss of a spellbook in a dungeon--so in many instances, its a moot point.

Bargle wrote:Most mu can't carry the weight, or risk the loss of a spellbook in a dungeon

In most games I've played, people tend to carry them around anyways and not really consider weight (which even if so, I wouldn't rule one more encumbering than for instance, a shield, and that's assuming a pretty darned imposing volume).

So, it seems like it would come up easily if any players dared to try it.

Warning TRP do not read to protect your mental sanity.

Random, huge spell books are one of those rules of the game that never seemed to fit the paradigm of "adventurer's ready to do anything and travel anywhere on a whim". An explorer shouldn't be constantly looking back. A spell book in 1E amounts to nothing more then a leash (the only leash in the game mind you) that keeps the MU (and by extension the group) from just never coming back....stepping threw that door that magically appears into another world or dimension. Why? Because, who the fuck is going to risk leaving their spells behind, its not like the DM is going to drop a new one in your lap if you leave.

Its one of the rules that cuts against the grain of the game (along with the week resting rule for anyone dropping into negative territory). The proof is in the UA correction (way too expensive and big still). Most DMs hand waved this rule as I recall (back in "the day") so I suspect this was the defacto way the game was played. The first time I actually saw this rule used was online. Foster's MU in our B2 game about 5 years ago. I think most here use this size requirement rule...but who cares what these drunks do, right. 1E is adaptable enough to fit your needs (do as you see fit) its still kosher 1E in my book if you make the spell book lighter.

One option -have the written spells detachable from the main spell book (but both normally kept together). After all, the spell book covers many things other then the spells themselves (alot of how too stuff), including many blank pages to fill up later). I think this generic section could be purchased anywhere the MU finds himself (so its not a disaster if he suddenly jumps on a boat and travels to a new land with the rest of the group). His spells safe with him. I understand the reasoning behind the rule (both rules balance wise and mental image wise) -the old guy with the beard poring over spell books and such. The visual image is powerful, but practically its tough to apply (and I think adventure should trump anything else).

THINK, do you really want to "miss out on your pot of gold" because you can't go threw the dimension door, or head off to some new land with the rest of the group (screams woosie to me). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MAg_yWsq8&ob=av2n A player should always feel free to keep going in one direction (even the book worm archtype) and a DM should aways be free to design for that possibility (ie. the players should never assume there will be a way back, why should there be?). Keep it light and fun. Just be sure to protect your visual images...I think that was the primary intention of this size rule.

Random wrote:Do you have to do it immediately after sleeping?
Can you have breakfast first?
Can you adventure all day long and then memorize spells?

Basically, I'm wondering if a magic-user could keep a few spots open in order to memorize a spell or two as needed.
The DMG doesn't seem to indicate a time frame for memorizing spells after resting, only that it takes fifteen minutes for each spell level.

(Apologies if this has come up before.)

As long as he's had the requisite amount of rest and has his spell books at hand I don't see any reason why a magic-user couldn't choose to memorize his spells mid-day rather than at the beginning of the day. The most obvious use for this would be if the mage begins the day without access to spell books (perhaps because he's being held prisoner) but gains access at some point during the day -- as long as he had had the necessary amount of rest the night before I'd allow him to immediately sit down and start memorizing spells, rather than waiting until the next day.

This strategy of delayed memorization can work particularly well for higher-level MUs with access to bags of holding/etc. for their spell books: leave a few spell slots open, and then memorize a spell as needed for the situation at hand (whether that's knock, gust of wind, enchanted weapon, passwall, etc.), and 15 minutes per spell level doesn't take very long, in the grand scheme of things.

FWIW, I also would not allow clerics, druids, or other casters who receive their spells from minions of the inner/outer planes (whether divine, infernal, elemental, etc.) to delay spell memorization: those casters pray for their spells, and receive whatever spells those agents deem fit to provide. There is no real control on the part of clerics, druids, etc. in their spell selections (even if this rule is generally ignored).

Good observations Grodog. So, this might be one reason for the spell book size requirment (to force the MU or Wizard to commit to certain spells. Like you said, this would be very advantageous to mid to higher level MUs. If you can memorize 4 or 5 1st level spells, leave one open in case you need the odd ball spell (suddenly need a mend, no problem).

We have always played spells (cleric and MU etc.) MUST be memorized in one sitting, and I suspect that was Gygax's intention (I've never seen or heard of it played the way your suggesting, though BTB it seems ok).
Allowing it would be a game changer, and alter the feel too much IMO. As DM just simply not allow it.

On second thought, maybe the rule is up to interpretation. It states you have to be well rested. That could be first thing in the morning after a meal before you get tired out adventuring.

Hey, thanks for the replies. So it seems there isn't anything explicitly prohibiting this, or I'm sure you guys would have pointed it out.

I can see where you're coming from, Axe, about it changing the game (from the usual assumption of "you can't do that"), but I'm not sure it would change things for the worst.
It seems like it would be fun if you could hold off and spend a couple of turns memorizing a needed spell. It'd be just another player choice; it might help or you might get caught with your pants down, magically speaking.

I'll ponder it. My new roommate and one of his friends expressed interest in AD&D. This popped into my head while I was thumbing through the rulebooks.

@grodog: Why not allow clerics to pray after the fact as well, a style issue? Visually, I think it would be cool to have a cleric drop down and start praying for holy magic to overcome some obstacle. The fifteen minute minimum should keep it from becoming habit.

Random wrote:It seems like it would be fun if you could hold off and spend a couple of turns memorizing a needed spell. It'd be just another player choice; it might help or you might get caught with your pants down, magically speaking.

I agree, it could definitely be a two-edged sword, since by not having another sleep or lightning bolt or whatever memorized means you're not operating at maximum spell capacity, which could hurt a lot if the PCs don't have time to spend on memorizing (due to fleeing, fighting, or other circumstances beyond their control).

Random wrote:@grodog: Why not allow clerics to pray after the fact as well, a style issue? Visually, I think it would be cool to have a cleric drop down and start praying for holy magic to overcome some obstacle. The fifteen minute minimum should keep it from becoming habit.

Hmmm. I guess it's just part of how I conceive of the differences between MUs and clerics---because I think of clerical, druidical, etc. magics as being delivered via their divine/etc. agents, all at once. And while clerics request certain spells, they may not necessarily receive those they ask for, based on whatever insights the gods (DM) foresee in their near future. I guess that's not really a rules-based answer, and even if it was, there's certainly nothing preventing you from allowing clerics/etc. to do the same thing

I allow Clerics and MUs (and subclasses) to leave a spell slot or two open to memorize later as needed. The players have never taken me up on it, but it does allow for that non-emergency utility spell to keep exploration going.

So, I allow it, but it hasn't affected play as the players haven't chosen to do it yet!

I would allow such, with the caveat that 'well rested' means you don't do such a thing after 5 minutes of sitting around.

vikingv wrote:I would allow such, with the caveat that 'well rested' means you don't do such a thing after 5 minutes of sitting around.

The DMG lists specific minimum rest times based on the highest level of spell you're going to memorize.

True, but an interesting Q for the delayed memorizers (and/or the literally minded rules interpreters) might be---"Are you still well-rested, after wandering around a dungeon for 4 hours?"....

Its been awhile, but I'd be interested to see what Storm Crow thinks about this one, as well as SKA and Scotty G. So if you guys are reading this, do chime in for your btb interpretation.

grodog wrote:True, but an interesting Q for the delayed memorizers (and/or the literally minded rules interpreters) might be---"Are you still well-rested, after wandering around a dungeon for 4 hours?"....

Yeah, I had probably had a few beers already before I quoted that stuff.
It would seem that whether or not sitting around a few minutes makes you not rested is the question.

Wouldn't it suck to get the jump on a magic-user right after he wakes up, just to monkey with his studies for the day?